March 2001
(Note- To search for a specific word, type "Ctrl" and "F".)
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Non-dual
Sent: 23.35 - 3/31 2001
Obi, Yogi, Miraka:
I agree no real time frame is involved hitting non- dual. You would
really block non-dual if you went hunting for it. Grasping minds would
kill any chance of getting it. I've had first time clients hit non-dual
and I give you a scout's honor I was not beating them over the noggin
with Shaktipat either.
Now I don't think strong resistance has to be in place to produce
essence/non-dual stuff. I've seen it come creeping up on Emoclear and
breathstyle tech. If you hit a row of little aspects that can abruptly
pop into a firm non-dual happening. Koans and Word/Phrase practices can
blow out the walls on the old concept maker in a big way too.
But I have had tech green clients open up non dual not much after they
started learning a tech. It really baffles the heck out of them in a
very serene and sometimes blissfull way. You know it is hitting them
because they have that fun crazed look in their eyes. Like yeah I never
thought about it this way...ever.
They'll try to describe it to you and really struggle to put it into
words. Basically they'll say they feel connected to everything and they
feel extremely satisfied and that everything makes sense. For once.
They all enjoy it. Many of them will have no clue, because these are
just ordinary people with no interest in deep sea diving or nonduality
or mystical states. They might have heard of tm. And they'll be plugging
away at something and then the ceiling caves in on them. It gets them
asking questions. Like what was that?
Lyle Talbot
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: Knocked Out!
Sent: 23.18 - 3/31 2001
Mirika, that is wonderful. I am so happy for you. I'm probably being
presumptious, and if it's none of my business, please say so. But this
is the place for exploring techniques, so........
May I ask, how long did the state last? Were you interested in running
more within a few hours? Days? Weeks?
Are you still blown out?
Did you go exterior?
Did the walls go "thin"?
Did your space feel much larger? Does this persist?
Did you find this experience was religious or spiritual in nature?
Do you now have more certainty of self as a being or consciousness
seperate from a body?
Did you feel this experience shifted your relationship with your body?
With the physical universe?
Does the state persist?
If not, have you repeated the experience?
Would you like others to share this experience?
Do you feel the experience has shifted your relationship to others?
Did you, or do you, experience a feeling of oneness?
No out, no in?
Thank you for any comments you would choose to make, Marika. Or anyone
else who has had a similar experience.
This knocks me out. Congratulations, and welcome, Mirika
Obi
Name: Yogi
Topic: Obi and Mirika
Sent: 23.00 - 3/31 2001
Mirika,
Your boyfriend's right. Alla Rakha is the tablas player. I did not know
Ali Akbar Khan's school was near me. I'll have to research that some
more. Thanks for straightening me out on that.
Obi,
There you go: Mirika is evidence. When something with a lot of
resistance is suddenly blown, it can create the opening to the non-dual.
I would think that a person practicing everyday for a few weeks would be
capable of the same thing. If they get facility with an Emoclear tech
and go after something big, it can happen.
You already know, people who have not had much clearing experience can
hit non-duality during feel-its on day one or two of the Avatar course.
I have seen people hit it with the label-it exercises too. The most
common was to have students hit it during their initiation, after
blowing out something big with a Persistent Mass rundown, and on the
Ultimate process.
This could happen with people brand-new to clearing tech or meditation.
Mirika is right on stating there is no particular time requirement.
This is not to discourage anyone - many people clear for a long time
before they have a non-dual experience, and that is OK too. Remember -
being greedy for it will block it from happening. I venture to state
that Mirika wasn't expecting it when she hit it after clearing her anger
with her mother.
I say be happy that you are clearing and know that all is well. With
this attitude, many unexpected blessings can come in everyday life.
-Yogi
Name: Mirika Chen
Topic: Obi & Yogi: non-dual continued
Sent: 22.07 - 3/31 2001
Obi & Yogi,
Except for having a little meditation experience with a John Kabot-Zinn
group and doing the Core Transformation without much luck, I was pretty
new to tech when I found this page. I've since been able to learn the
Core Transformation successfully from things I learned here.
Yogi: My boyfriend said that Ali Akbar Khan is a Sarod Player and has a
school for Indian Music in Seattle.
Mirika Chen
Name: Mirika Chen
Topic: Non-dual States
Sent: 21.55 - 3/31 2001
Obi and Yogi,
I would not think there was a time frame on when you would experience a
non dual experience. I think it was about the third time I used an
Emoclear tech when the door opened up and I was left hanging without a
shred of thought process. I worked primarily with the Meridian Grasp and
I was working on a problem. I worked with the Meridian Grasp for several
hours at a time. sometimes between two and three hours. It was on the
third time I used it that I was focused on the emotion of anger with my
mother. Very intense anger. And it blew open on me and left me without
any thought processes whatsoever. No idea of time. No viewer and nothing
viewed. My anger transformed into a blissfilled wide open consciousness.
The "I" was gone.
I had never been to a place like that before. It was quite incredable.
I can see why no one really understands this and it is so very difficult
to relate. It doesn't seem to be something that can be described with
words. No words are present. You can say all the not this and not that
and the descriptions fall short. The only way that I can describe is
that your thinking just turns off. Click. Cold. Click. Just experience.
Click.
It only took me 3 times. I did have some help here because Steve got me
to loosen my grip and breathe higher up in my lungs. I think my first
nondual experience came too because I was working on something I
intensely fought having. Anger.
Mirika Chen
Name: The Buddha
Topic: Meditation Courses on Tape
Sent: 21.45 - 3/31 2001
Has anyone worked with Shinzen Young's "Science of
Enlightenment" tape set or Sharon Salzberg and Jack Kornfield's
Insight Meditation Correspondence Course? Has anyone worked with other
sets of tapes they thought helped them to build a regular meditation
practice?
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: Three Weeks?
Sent: 21.03 - 3/31 2001
Dear Yogi,
I'm astonished. I will be truthful and confess that I have only tried
Steve's processes a few times. I try out each of them (not the copper
plates yet.) Some of them just fly: I find them to be very easy and
efficacious. Some leave me stumped, but it's likely not the process. I'm
not hitting them that hard, and if I'm stumped, I'm not following up
with questions to you guys who are running them a lot.
There are things that Steve has posted on the tech page that are
absolutely top-notch: as good or better than anything I've seen.
But you astonish me with your statement that Emoclear will produce
"non-dual" states in 21 days of half-hour sessions. Do you
mean in people that do not have much experience with this clearing
stuff? Can you back up this statement? Does anyone else here have
anything to back up that statement?
Can this be true?
Mensing. You run these processes on people in your practice. Maybe some
of you other guys also. Are there people getting these states in three
weeks of half hour sessions?
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: The Ultimate
Sent: 20.35 - 3/31 2001
Dear Steven Karl,
I say this in greatest respect: I don't say it as an Avatar Master
(which I am not), or representing any point of view other than my own,
which, as you know, can be awfully presumptious and ill-mannered. If you
have a problem with the Ultimate Process, YOU have a problem. Hell, if I
can do it, YOU can do it. At least, I think you can do it.
Even though I have done many thousands of hours of processes in many
disciplines, I found the Ultimate Process to be the most profoundly
transforming act of my life.
No bullsh*t. Absolutely, without any reservation, the most profound.
Go find a good Master and retread the course. Please. I'm doing a
retread at one of those big deliveries in Southern California in five
weeks, and I'm counting down the days. Can I count on you being there
with me?
The rest of you guys: hey, surf's up!
Obi
Name: Steven Karl
Topic: Ultimate Process
Sent: 19.54 - 3/31 2001
I have always had one distinct problem with the Ultimate Process.
Without actually naming the steps, you are basically suppose to stretch
out your consciousness so that everything outside of you becomes part of
what is inside of you. So you become responsible for everything. And
then you can turn it off. The problem comes when I hear the car outside
or the leaf blower, etc. I then have a sense that those things are
outside of me, because I cannot turn them off (at least from where I am
sitting). It is like physical proof right there that there are things
outside of myself. Doesn't this circumvent the entire process?
I know that the wording will seem strange for those who have yet
experience it. Actually it may even sound strange to those who have done
the process. Sometimes words fail us.
Name: Yogi
Topic: Steve's music
Sent: 19.39 - 3/31 2001
Man, I like your taste in music, Steve. Sarod music was one of my
psychedelic mainstays.
And yes, I probably still have that 5-Cd NASA set around somewhere. CD
no. 3 has some incredible sounds which I swear must be the celestial
voices!
Only one thing: if I am not mistaken, Ali Akbar Khan is the famous
tablas master, and the Sarod master is named Ustad Allah Khan. I saw
Ustad Allah Khan a few years back in India at Osho's Ashram. He had
specially composed a suite for a blend of Eastern and Western
Instruments just for that concert. Amazing. Then he blew us all out
again in the second set with the traditional stuff. It was one of those
"glad I am alive and can experience this" evenings for me.
Also there is a composer still alive today that lives in Seattle named
Alan Hovhaness. His Third Symphony is what Carl Sagan chose as the theme
music for his famous "Cosmos" TV series. I recently had the
good fortune of being at a debut of a new symphony in which he used Zen
flute melodies as the theme material. Very mysterious and awe-inspiring
stuff. He has an Armenian heritage, and his melodies use the odd minor
tonalities of Armenian and Persian music. Great for altered states,
breathwork, or meditation, I would think.
Man, you can get me going on music forever, but I better stop now.
-Yogi
Name: Yogi
Topic: Music, meditation, non-dual
Sent: 19.21 - 3/31 2001
Hey, actually when I look back at that title for the post I made up, you
could use it as a map to non-dual.
You have probably experienced non-dual Obi, but all the hoo-haa people
have made up about it has you hoodwinked.
It's what happens when you run the Ultimate process of Avatar and
EVERYTHING really does discreate for you.
A good initiation Process from section III Avatar will do it, too. I
have seen it plenty of times, and in high numbers on Masters and Wizards
courses.
There's plenty of other processes that can do it too, but I named some
of the Avatar processes because I know you love the Avatar material.
Definitions all fall away, and with those, all pairs of opposites and
the tensions between opposites. Even being vs non-being dissolves.
Meditation is the original clearing practice, and will take you
ultimately to the non-dual. In meditation, clearing happens when
mindstuff confronts silence. Since there are no anchors to grab onto, no
opposing charge to interact with, no responses from the observer,
mindstuff just burns itself out like a dying star. The old yogis called
this "roasting the seeds of karma".
Clearing tech is basically techniques to speed up the process of
meditation. This is because 21st century people don't have several hours
a day for several years to practice. Modern people need to be able to
hit non-dual states in about three weeks with a half-hour a day of
practice. Hence Emoclear.
The people that have done 21 days Vipassana retreats and lots of Zen
sesshin will testify that meditation can definitely clear. It will also
spare you no pain in experiencing your creations. The silent observer
must be willing to witness it ALL. As that Hermann Hesse book
Steppenwolf declared,"the price of admission is your mind."
This is not to scare anyone, just to underscore that meditation is best
approached with commitment, and of course, the required sense of humor.
Your subconscious will bring up your most embarrasing and resisted
memories to be cleared. Best to just sit back and enjoy the show. That
fabulous movie of yourself!
-Yogi
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: Bravo! Brava!
Sent: 17.44 - 3/31 2001
Bravissimo! Thanks, guys. Very good attempts. But if I were from Mars
(not even close), I don't think I'd be understanding what you are saying
here.
Is this one of those "takes one to know one" deals, like being
in the Turtle Club?
Please. Will someone else take a crack at this?
Name: Cyndy
Topic: It's all Eve's Fault
Sent: 17.31 - 3/31 2001
One doesn't know how limiting words are until you try to describe the in
describable. To define that that is beyond definition.
I don't know if this is true or not. But someone once told me that no
where in the bible will you find a definition of what "love"
is. Only what it isn't.
I think one can get a better feel for what non-duality is by knowing
first what duality is. Duality to me is anything that has a polar
opposite. Beautiful/ugly, smart/dumb, hot/cold, good/evil and etc.
One can intellectualize non-duality and yet never quite grasp what it
is, until it is experienced.
And yet I have found most people have had some type of non-dual
experience. They might not understand it as that.
Was it Eve's fault? If she hadn't eaten the apple, would we all have
non-dual projector's? Anyways, duality is fun once you get the hang of
it.
Cyndy
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Daku: Thanks Obi: Non-duality etc
Sent: 16.36 - 3/31 2001
Daku: Thanks for the information about software for "ironing
out" tapes.
Obi Wan: Non-duality may be the most difficult expression in the
language to explain. Mainly because it distances itself from language
altogether. It is a nonconceptual experience and yet even
"experience" misses the mark because that creates the illusion
of a start and a finish.
In non-dual experience it's generally understood that no separation
exists between subject and object. The observer and observed are of the
same stuff: consciousness. Even the label consciousness can be pulled
off.
Non-duality might be discussed (and likely further confused)as a primal
consciousness with neither an outside or an inside. No location. No
Time. No Space. No polarities or opposites.
Flat out no no.
Words need not apply because they are nixed due to the fact that
non-duality is wordless and nonconceptual.
No distinctions. No objects. No self--unless you suddenly want to call
this all SELF--GOD--or one of those fancy Indian names.
It is consciousness, yet even that word is constraining.
Someone likened it to BEING ONE WITH THE MANY. Sort of, but not really.
Those words again Obi.
It has been likened to an existance that neither arises or subsides,
kind of a deathless reality. Darn that word "reality" has no
more substance than mind.
Back to square one. (Oneness loses it too--drat)
Non-duality has been described as: "all phenomena is
emptiness". Even emptiness is a concept and falls short.
It's been called a revelation via pure consciousness.
But dammit pure conjures up impure and we don't quite arrive there with
those notions.
It is not anything that a thought can create, yet anything is a thought
and falls short.
Noncognitive pure beingness. How many more at bats do I get. Maybe I
should give up "grasping" for it? I really should.
No past--no future. Some say really no present either because present
can not exist devoid of its competition.
No viewpoint? However a non-viewpoint would still be a viewpoint.
No boundaries. No defilements. Nah--that's not it.
We can point, but better remain mute. What are we pointing at? Nope.
No cognitive overlays on consciousness--just peel off the word
consciousness and anything else that pops up.
It's starting to seem as if all definitions of non-duality are in the
wrong language.
However you're liable to find the better non-definitions
in Zen, some forms of Taoism, the utilization of certain tech, in
certain forms of Shivaism, in Advaita Vedanta,and in certain forms of
Tibetan Buddhism. It occurs when the cognitive functions grind to a
halt.
Duality is separation--subject/object. A cognitively created illusion.
So we got sold a crummy projector. What can I say. Sometimes we better
pull the plug.
When I'm speaking of wholeness, I'm speaking of a sense of feeling
complete and self-contained. We are the source of love, acceptance,
security, power, serenity, creativity, and a sense of connection with
all life.
Hope others will give their impressions also, Steve
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: Duality? Whazat?
Sent: 13.48 - 3/31 2001
A few posts back, Steve mentioned "wholeness and non-duality".
I've heard a lot of definitions of "duality" and
"non-duality", and wonder what you guys feel it means.
Name: Daku
Topic: wishes come true
Sent: 09.43 - 3/31 2001
Steve M-
... old tape box. Some of these I wish I had on CD.
Did you know there is software available now that cleans up ambient
noise like tape hiss and needle pop and crackle as you transfer your old
format music onto CD with a CD burner. It also does something to make
the sound better than the source copy. Now that is way cool.
I read about it somewhere recently but I don't remember where. It wasn't
very expensive either. I'll bet you could search it out.
Best,
Daku
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Steve M. and Entrancing music
Sent: 09.25 - 3/31 2001
Steve M.:
Too bad you're not enthusiastic about trance music or drumming. Heaven
forbid!
I have heard Vodun recordings with the drumming. The drumming grows
progressively chaotic and intense. It is music suitable for an exorcism.
I believe Voodoo drumming is there to effect possession states. I love
it! Now there is music to enhance the Barbarian Course which I shall
take no doubt. I want to cement my arrogance. I believe I will be able
to do that with the Jungle Fury Evocation!
Barbarians Unite! Bring back the Night!
Where is the Beast?
Lyle Talbot
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Trance Music Continued
Sent: 09.09 - 3/31 2001
Here's some exact titles from my old tape box. Some of these I wish I
had on CD. Some are likely out of print. You might want to check a Muse
machine for availability.
Drum items:
"Master Drummers of Dagbon" Vol. 1 & 2 Rounder
"Voodoo Trance Music/Ritual Drums of Haiti" Lyrichord
Rec.(Still in print)
These contain some really outstanding drumming, but are likely out of
print. I'd like to have cd's of these. Musart in Cupertino, CA produced
them.
"Ecstacy: Journey of Drums and Horn"
"Sonado Tambores (Dreaming Drums)"
"Sangoma Drums"
"Maruga"
"Journey of the Drums"
All of the above were done with Prem Das, Muruga, Shakti et al with a
Nada Drum among other percussion instruments.
Michel Uyttebroek did "Drums of Passion" and "Distant
Drums Approach" Both have some excellent trance riffs.
Spirit Drummers did "Magic"
Take Care, Steve
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Trance Music
Sent: 08.34 - 3/31 2001
Yogi:
The exact title of those space sounds I was talking about on LaserLight
was "Symphonies of the Planets" Vol.1-5. Those were the
Voyager recordings.
Some great trance drumming can be found on:
"Guem" Musiques De Trance on Chante Du Monde recordings.
Mickey Heart's "Planet Drum" has some good stuff on it.
"Drums of Death" (Maybe the Barbarian Course can use this
baby) on Avan.
"The Big Bang" has a lot of fine world percussion on it. It's
a three volume set.
There was a recording company called Muszart who put out some great
stuff about 8 years back. Prem Das, Big Black, Maruga and some other
percussionists worked with them. They used a water drum called a Quantum
Drum. They put out some really trancey discs. Among them was Journey of
Drums. I wish I had there stuff on CD. It was really first rate. They
were from the Pacific Northwest. Either Washington or Oregon. They had
it down right.
Lyrichord Discs has some fine Hatian trance drumming on their Voodoo
discs.
Take care, Steve
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Yogi: NASA Space music
Sent: 08.11 - 3/31 2001
Yogi:
If we're talking about the same NASA sounds, they're great for
breathwork exploration. They were the sounds Voyager sent back as it
traveled through the solar system. It creates long meandering electronic
rifts with bassey and changing sound patterns. An entire 5 volume set
can be had from Laserlight a budget disc company in L.A. I think they
call it Space Symphoney or something like that. Towers carry them.
Sometimes they're in the nature sound section or in the Electronica
Space Music section. They work like machine sounds.
I bet we're talking about the same thing. Actually several companies
have put out these Nasa space sounds which are in the public domain.
The tail ends of Ali Akbar Khan Sarod music where he's flying down the
road with his tabla player can be strongly evocative and bring up all
sorts of "stuff".
Drumming is great. Real Voodoo trance drumming works great. I'll be back
in a bit with some interesting drumming titles.
Take care, Steve
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Cee Jay: trance music, meditation
Sent: 07.59 - 3/31 2001
Cee Jay:
Some Pink Floyd would fit well especially the nonvocal variety. Years
ago I heard it employed in a Holotropic Breathwork workshop.
Hey if you want a good music source I just found this url last week and
would really enjoyed some of the downloads there. Not only do they have
the complete "Psychedelic Experience" by Leary et al, that
website also has an early work on using music in psychedelic therapy
which of course would have a cross application to breathwork
exploration. The title of this fairly long article or booklet is
"The Use of Music in Pyschedelic (LSD) Psychotherapy. The article
showed up in the journal of Music Therapy back in 72'.
It was by Helen Bonny and Walter Pahnke. Helen Bonny is the person who
put GIM (Guided Imagery with Music) together.
Here's the url:
Http;//www.csp.org/practices/entheogens/docs/bonny-music.html
For the Psychedelic Experience which was a 60's fave guidebook built
upon the "Tibetan Book of the Dead". This has applications to
breathwork exploration as well.
The url is:
http://www.erowid.org/archive/hyperreal/drugs/psychedelics/leary/psychedelic.html
The whole guidbook is there. It will bring back fond memories for some
and give some useful information ( psychedelicized Tibetan Book of the
Dead spin) on interior journeys in general.
Meditation such as found in Vipassana, Zen, and Mahamudra will clear,
but this is a longhaul process built on a slow gradient. It wears stuff
out and degrades charges. Meditation will eventually provide nondual
opportunities. It teaches patience and it is very helpful for developing
keen interior observation. It may be a slowboat in some areas, but it is
an ancient approach to the interior that provides discipline, opens up
compassion, and bestows a wealth of fine gifts on its practitioners. I
would reccomend the three I mentioned to anyone even if they have
experienced wholeness, nonduality, lots of clearing already, or the
ability to pick and choose their belief systems. There's much to be
learned from watching your breath or the contents of "mind".
Just sitting there with stiffness and boredom and a wandering mind can
be very informing.
Only One:
The Barbarian Course sounds like it might be pretty useful in coming to
grips with our estranged "self".
Take care, Steve
Name: Yogi
Topic: Trance music
Sent: 07.34 - 3/31 2001
Steve's list of music for breathwork is tried and true.
Many different things can be used as people go into a trance response to
different things.
For altered states exploration I like music with no vocals, and long
meandering soundscapes. I used one tape a lot with the light and sound
machines, it was by a group called Hidden Memories, the CD was called
Earth Island, and it worked really well. There was a track on it called
"Places In Between" that I liked a lot. It has synthesizers,
didgeridoos, guitars and really great tribal drumms and Brazilian
percussion.
There is some voices mixed in chanting shamanic prayers every now and
then. I found it really good for theta brainwave states.
The slow introductions to Indian ragas are great too. These intros can
last 15-30 minutes and will take you deep also.
I also used certain of the NASA space tapes, although this won't be
everyone's cup of tea.
-Yogi
Name: CeeJay
Topic: Trance Music/meditation
Sent: 07.18 - 3/31 2001
You might take a gander over on the tech page at the music that Steve
recommends to use with Breathwork.
Personally, I love Pink Floyd. I've used it so much that I have to be
careful if a song comes on the car radio while I'm driving. I easily go
into an altered state.
But I've used other music, other sound tracks. I like the one's produced
by Liquid Mind, and also sounds of recordings of outerspace.
I have also experimented with light and sound machines. I echo what
others have said. It's an interesting experience. Great for changing
brainwaves, but I don't think I ever cleared anything thru the use of
it. I only used it for a couple of months though.
Has anyone ever cleared something thru meditation? If not, then what is
the purpose of meditation?
CJ
Name: OnlyOne
Topic: Black NAP
Sent: 05.25 - 3/31 2001
Are you stuck in some namby-pamby state of enlightenment? You need the
BARBARIAN COURSE! We will coax from you those qualities and values that
will allow you to once again scream, "I am a BARBARIAN!"
The tech, of how to create a Barbarian from an enlightened state, is NOW
available. Of course, it contains no secrets and is free to all. Our
Emocloudy blows will bring you rapidly into a fixed state of supreme
self-importance and arrogance. Our PHC will allow you to defend with
rock-solid evidence any belief that you find convenient.
You want brutality? We've got it.
You want to be feared? We have some of the most effect threats you'll
ever issue. Bring that wuzz to his knees shaking like jello.
You want to drip with raw sexual dominance? No problem.
You don't want to be bothered with responsibility or decisions? Don't
worry, our indoctrination is 100% guarenteed or else.
Get off you butt fat brain. We can lower your IQ overnight and you won't
even remember it. We'll be by shortly and sign you up for THE BARBARIAN
COURSE. You will take it!
Don't you love Saturdays?
Name: Poster
Topic: Trance Music
Sent: 04.42 - 3/31 2001
What is some good trance-style music?
Name: Yogi
Topic: Glad NAP is back!
Sent: 00.01 - 3/31 2001
I am certainly happy NAP is back!
Steven K.,
Source gets wrapped in creations! That's what the FUN is all about!
David P. - I experimented with the Voyager light and sound machine and a
similar device. They were fun, but not especially powerful. My body
developed a tolerance to their effect after several sessions. I ended up
using the devices mostly to aid in ramping the brainwaves down for
sleeping. I did have some nice experiences using them along with
trance-style music.
-Yogi
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Beta spikes in Whole Brain Synchrony
Sent: 17.32 - 3/30 2001
William:
We should also mention that some beta spiking takes place along with
theta/delta in the "Awakened Mind" and "Whole Brain
Synchrony" This is where the sense of focused absorbtion comes into
play.
Take Care, Steve
Name: William Tekada
Topic: Repost: Brainwaves/clearing/healing
Sent: 17.00 - 3/30 2001
Paraphrase of Pluto Beseen reply to Yogi's question.
Yogi asked: What effect do brainwave states have on clearing and
healing?
I said:
I think in theta/delta we not only have access to deeper material, there
is something in those brainwave states, maybe energy or bioelectricity
that vaporizes thoughtforms, emoti-forms--when these masses are exposed
to it. In Emoclear when we blow something out, we are turning it back
into formlessness in an essence state that leaves an imprint. The memory
now contains the same sense of essence or a core state. It isn't
mass--it's like the ground of our being gets marked electrically with
the color of essence we evoked in the polarity. This could be wholeness,
basic goodness, serenity, power, completeness--any of those things we
searched for out there, yet found inside us at a deeper level. Beingness
for want of a better description.
Brainwaves were written about by Maxwell Cade, Julian Isaaks, Anna Wise,
and others in the neurofeedback area. They called this special region
Awakened Mind or Whole Brain Synchrony. It's super duper for bringing up
material and departiculating it. These states are often wordless and
timeless. Steve calls them Positive Black Holes.
Also when we're in Theta/delta our muscle tension is very, very low.
This might be why targets get deanchored and vaporized in awareness. Who
knows?
We could be making wild guesses here. The brainwaves are different and
they have been linked with healing states by the neurofeedback people.
If we're relaxed then it stands to reason our anchors don't have much
hanging onto them, resisting them.
William Tekada
The next is a paraphrase of Steve M.'s follow up post on Pluto Be Seen:
"Thanks for tossing up some light on this area. Elmer and Alice
Green have also written on this mysterious area of consciousness change
and healing. Likely our Postive Black Hole (What non resistance and
essence clearing states in general create) acts to demagnetize the
energy form's particulate mass and this makes it disintegrate before our
eyes. Deanchoring is likely a part of this process as well. Our muscle
tension does drop in theta/delta. Whatever we focus upon loses its body
anchor and this may cause the energy form or mass to be unresisted and
cleared in consciousness. Theta/delta based consciousness appears to
have intrinsic healing and clearing properties.
There's likely many other explanations that may fit the facts of
clearing and healing at these amplitudes.
Steve Mensing"
William Tekada
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Steve K, Copper Foil L/S Machines
Sent: 14.02 - 3/30 2001
Steve K: could you give a brief run down on what Source is and how it
appears. Some of the newbies might not know exactly what those
expressions mean.
Agni:Copper Foil won't generate much chi I would guess. It certainly
won't hold up from being reclined upon.
Copper sheeting is pretty plentiful if your in any town over 50,000 pop.
Mack's description of telephone service from a sheet place is pretty
accurate. They want precise questions--uncertainty is outside of their
realm. Plus in most situations people who are working with pipes and
sheets are not generally people persons. It's like having a torrid
affair reasearch librarian. It ain't happening.
L/S machines generally will only entrain you for a few shots according
to reasearch unless they alter their pattern. I tried one and had fun
with it. You really don't need much of anything other than your body or
your brain. The copper bio-circuits get my okay. Their cheap to build
and will add something to the mix. Steve's prescription for 12 inch
squares provide a great shot of chi. They are also great for power naps
and stress fighting. The only gizmos I ever got off on were biocircuits,
epsom salt tanks, ganzfeld goggles.
Lyle Talbot
Name: SuperClear
Topic: Machine Clearing
Sent: 13.03 - 3/30 2001
I tried using my Maytag, watching it spin until I was in a altered state
but it broke down on the rinse cycle. Don't recommend it.
Name: David Paradise
Topic: Light and Sound Machines
Sent: 10.24 - 3/30 2001
Have any of you guys used light and sound machines as a catalyst for
clearing. I had a David Paradise Light and Sound machine and was
underwhelmed by it as a tool for meditation. It also broke down fairly
quickly after purchase. I am wondering if you guys have used anything
you were really impressed by as far as machinery for clearing goes.
Thank You,
Mr. Paradise
Name: Agni
Topic: Copper
Sent: 10.20 - 3/30 2001
I went to a craft store and they had a twelve x 36 sheet of something
called copper foil for about 12 dollars. Can the copper be too
thin....this stuff looked pretty damned flexible! But it also looked
like I could probably cut it with a normal scissors...any thoughts on
this, Oh Kings and Queens of clearing.
Name: Matt S
Topic: Thanks
Sent: 09.47 - 3/30 2001
Thanks for the help! I've found someplace that says they will cut sheets
that small and has fairly flexible sheets too, so I'll check them out.
The first 10 places I called either didn't have it or would only sell it
in 3 foot by 8 foot sheets for over 100 bucks! It pays to shop around...
Take care,
Matt
Name: Steven Karl
Topic: Food for Thought
Sent: 09.14 - 3/30 2001
Ever notice that
Pure Source, is often
wrapped in an identity,
wrapped in a creation
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: William's response on Pluto Be Seen
Sent: 09.00 - 3/30 2001
William gave a fine response to Yogi's earlier question here about the
effect of brainwaves on healing and clearing masses. That response is
over on the Pluto Be Seen page. Hopefully when this page gets a little
more stable someone will transfer William's post here. In the intrim
check it out over on Pluto Be seen.
These pages may be a bit unstable yet. Keep a copy of anything long you
might want to post, because test posts vanished from here earlier this
morning.
Take care, Steve
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Matt: Biocircuits
Sent: 08.54 - 3/30 2001
Matt: It doesn't have to be terribly flexible, just bend a little to the
weight of your body. I don't know how guage figures in sheeting
thicknesses. The sheeting should be no thicker than a dime. Most of the
sheets of copper I've seen seem uniform in thickness. It's likely best
if you eyeball the sheets. If you live in a fair size city you should be
able to locate a number of spots that sell sheets. Scrap metal yards,
large hardware and homebuilding supply houses. Most will cut the
sheeting for you. I suspect Obi might be helpful here as he must deal
with lots of metals and possible suppliers. He might be able to give you
additional ideas on where to find copper sheets. Some roofing suppliers
may have copper shingles if you live in the East or Midwest where
slanted roofs are still in vogue especially in older churches.
Take care, Steve
Name: Mack
Topic: Biocircuits
Sent: 08.43 - 3/30 2001
Matt, you might be more successful if you check the yellow pages under
"Metals" and go in person to check out their scrap bin. That's
what I did. The degree of helpfulness and consumer-sensitivity in the
metal business might be somewhat lower than you are accustomed to, and
getting help over the phone might be a bit difficult when you're just
shopping for a few dollars worth of material. Typically they take orders
for truckloads, from customers who specify exactly what they want. Good
luck!
All the best
Mack
Name: Matt S
Topic: Biocircuit ?
Sent: 08.35 - 3/30 2001
I have been calling some places locally to try to find copper sheeting
for a biocircuit and haven't had much luck. The only place that could
cut 12 by 12 squares for me said the metal was 26 gauge. He said that
wasn't very flexible.
I don't speak metal very well...does anyone know how thick 26 gauge is
and whether that would be workable for a biocircuit?
Thanks,
Matt
Name: tester
Topic: testing testing 123
Sent: 08.29 - 3/30 2001
???
Name: NAP
Homepage: http://pluto.beseen.com/boardroom/o/50884/
Topic: Returning to normal
Sent: 07.25 - 3/30 2001
I think our forum is on its way to returning to us. There does seem to
be some needed adjustments but at least we are better off than we were
yesterday. Stay tuned.
In the mean time, if this place goes down again, try the New Awareness
Page at the above listed address.
Name: Steven Karl
Topic: Raul, One, Mack
Sent: 17.45 - 3/27 2001
Raul,
Are you refering to the Release Technique as taught by Larry Crane (as
opposed to the Release Method) where you put your head down, imagine
the tube into you and feel the feelings shoot upward?
Thanks for the comment on Wilber. He seems to get difficult to
understand though. He has lots of "creations".
Beyond,
Very true. But I think Steve gets lots of appreciation. He has a whole
guestbook full of thank you's from all over the world. And that is
just the tip of the iceberg.
Mack,
Great rundown of that process. I have never heard of it before.
Through it I kept wondering what the sleep deprevation had to do with
the methodology.
Who am I? Good question.
This experiencer.
Name: Raul
Topic: The Release Technique
Sent: 17.27 - 3/27 2001
The Release Technique looks to simple to be really effective on the
first viewingof it,but that also is the power of the technique.
The technique does not requere that you stop what you are doing to
implement the use of it.
Thus the more you use it the greater the the sense of freedom one
attains. To get the full use of it you have to release all day long.
It becomes a way of life. A beautiful one I might add. Because you are
feleasing canstantly rarely does anything big come up. But if it does
you simply release it to .
Iv'e tried it all from A to Zen,and all types of self helptech and the
release technique is the best Iv'e come across.
Steve I read Ken Wilbur's "No Boundaries" and it was a great
book . He is a really great writer and very deeeeeeeeep !
Much Shanti
Raul
Name: BeyondOne
Topic: Oh, by the way...
Sent: 17.07 - 3/27 2001
I was reading this and thought of Steve.
"Expediently, to guide us, he acts just like us.
In truth he is completely different from us all.
His realization makes him the noblest of us all.
Skilled at cutting through our doubts, he bears with patience
All our discouragement and lack of gratitude."
Thanks for your insights on hatred.
Sent: 16.58 - 3/27 2001
twenty people, 20, not @0
Name: Mack
Topic: Enlightenment Intensive Update
Sent: 16.54 - 3/27 2001
For Justine and anyone else interested in the Godening Intensive, my
friend Will in Florida just gave me the following info:
@0 people attended, and the cost was $395 for 3 days. Surprisingly,
over half the class didn't even have an idea or an opinion what
"enlightenment" was: they had signed up for the most part
because someone close had taken it and liked it.
There is one simple drill for three days: you ask the question
"Who am I?" several thousand times, in different contexts.
You are only allowed six hours of sleep a night and fatigue and
boredom grow to challenging proportions. You just keep working through
all of that, and one of the few variations of the "Who am
I?" question involves a "dyad" drill where you and a
partner tell one another for five minutes who you think you are.
Will tells me that by day three his brain felt "combed out with a
fine tooth comb" and his perceptions were much clearer than
normal, and he felt extremely peaceful and surrounded by a sense of
well-being he has never really experienced before, a bit to his own
surprise. He's been doing this kind of consciousness-altering stuff
for some 15 years now, usually more elaborate stuff, and he tells me
he was surprised to experience such a simple drill as being so
powerfull.
He tells me he didn't "Get it" (enlightenement) but he said
the weekend was nonetheless well worth it. However, one of his dyad
partners did get "it" right in the middle of her description
to him of who she thought she was.
Will said there was no mistaking it: you could see and feel a
transformation in her, and that a wave of pure love energy emanated
from her spontaneously, to the point where the whole group went silent
and closed their eyes and basked in it for awhile. This happened to
four others with a similar effect.
Will asked her later what it was like and she was completely unable to
describe it, not surprisingly, but he says when he asked the question,
he once again felt this extraordinarily beautiful wave of love energy
radiate from her, a wave that was powerful enough to make even him
feel a bit like he was floating on a cloud.
All in all a great endorsement, I thought. Everyone was offered a
refund at the end and no one took one.
Will tells me that more than ever now he really experiences himself as
the creator of his reality, and he feels he accomplished a permanent
shift in awareness similar to what Avatar produces. In effect he feels
much more in control.
Footnote: He tells me that after returning from the intensive, some
friends dropped by and someone pulled out some weed, and from old
habit he was quickly in a cannabis-induced altered state. As soon as
he became aware that he was though, he decided he didn't like it. So
just out of curiousity he ran an Avatar process and totally popped out
of being stoned, completely overcoming the effect of the chemical. I
thought that was remarkable.
I'm tempted to take this Godening thing myself from what I hear and as
I mentioned before, Will is pretty objective and reliable in what he
reports.
All the best
Mack
Name: Steven Karl
Topic: Ken Wilber
Sent: 15.56 - 3/27 2001
I have recently been reading a book by Ken Wilber, One Taste. It is
actually his diary for one year with his thoughts and meditation
techniques included. Wilber is suppose to be a spiritual and awareness
theorist. It is interesting reading.
Has anyone else read Ken Wilber or have opinions on his work?
Name: Mirika Chen
Topic: Biocircuits and hate
Sent: 14.02 - 3/27 2001
I have really enjoyed my biocircuits over the last week. Sergey's
Russian site was very helpful with it's pictures. I've had trouble
feeling rested and relaxed somedays because of my schedule with book
work and school. I've had power naps with my bio-circuits that have
made feel very well rested. For the rest and stress breaking alone I
think the biocircuits are invaluable. If I time the Biocircuits just
right and my body lets me know, I wake up very rested and sharp
minded. Over the weekend I combined the Cortical Runner with the
biocircuit and found it gave me extremely sharp visuals of events. I
am talking about very sharp. I would hold the handles under my hands
on my face. It worked very well. My boyfriend like the relaxation
properties so much he made a set of biocircuits for his father who
sufferes from chronic insomnia. His dad found it worked very well. I
really love that I have these things. The rest it gives means quite a
bit.
I really enjoyed Steve's, Mack's, and Yogi's reads on hate. It does
seem like a plague on the world. There are so many of these groups out
there that are fanatic and hateful. They have a warped view of others.
The fanatic groups in the middleeast and Afghanistan are very
dangerous. They see America as some preditory monster. It seems like
extreme and longlasting anger. They can only see the United States one
way. That Ben Layden and his people put out some of the weirdest
philosophies.
Last year I was handed some Aryian Nations literature in Sacremento. I
looked at it and it was pretty scary material. The people who wrote it
had a very funneled view of reality. They were really wierd about Jews
and Afro-Americans. Like they only had these beastly qualities. Is
there an education available about hate thinking? I know hate groups
are put down. Is there anything out there where people can look at how
scrunched up their thinking is. It's very dangerous to think like
this. It can really hurt people and does. Fanatics operate from a
different mindset entirely. I guess it never dawns on them that their
thinking is off. They do see others in just one way, a very negative
and crazy way.
Love, Mirika Chen
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: H A T E * H A T E * H A T E
Sent: 06.25 - 3/27 2001
Beyond One and others:
Hate, as we all know, is a time consumming pain in the ass that hurts
its producer as well as his targets.
It is an aversive emotion fueled by distorted beliefs.
When we hate, we not only produce strong negative emotions, distort
our perceptions, stress ourselves, often impact on our hated targets
in a way that gets negative feedback, we also create cortisol and
oxidative stress aging ourselves in the process and lowering our
immune response. Hate pays poorly. The world is littered with the
historical remanants of hate. The chap, who once called the Jews a
bacterium in "Mein Kampf", has his bullet shattered skull
fragment on display in an enemy's museum.
Hate likely produces far more suffering for the hater than the hated
unless the hater acts on his anger and hostility. There are people who
stumble around through life hating others for years and never letting
it go.
Hate may serve a useful function in a time of war when we better hate
an enemy. It makes killing easier. Hopefully there are better answers
than war, but life is imperfect and sometimes we must respond to
civilization's trances. Hate is a strong reminder of a perceived
wrong. Yet how long do we hang on to this emotion that appears to hurt
us more and our targets less?
What is hate? It's anger, loathing, and hostility directed toward
someone or something. I hate Mr. Piggles because he did x or he is x.
In order to hate someone or somthing, that someone or something has to
break our rule or rules about how life should be conducted. And in
their breaking of our rule, they suddenly become one-dimensional
labels in our eyes.
Hate and prejudice go hand in hand. Predjudice resides at the heart of
hate. Prejudice is a set of trance beliefs based on
overgeneralization. Overgeneralization is where several instances of a
category are seen as an entire category. Overgeneralization comes in
two basic flavors. (1) An event happens and we conclude it will occur
again and again. (Ex: I got canned, I'll always get canned). But
here's where hate/predjudice often show up: (2) You evaluate yourself,
others, or something by only one or a few traits. (Ex: Arcturians are
loud, uncooth, and lazy).
When we overgeneralize we better focus on the: (1)Frequency of
occurrence because this will provide a more realistic assessment. (2)
Recognize that everyone and everything possesses a multitude of
neutral or positive qualities and not just one or a few negative
qualities.
In hate we are focused on only the negative and this is a strong clue
that we are involved in a trance condition. Mal Epps did such and such
and he's a $@&%*#!
In hate they broke our rule and instantly become a one
dimensional-label. He did that awful thing and now he's a %^&#*@!
Someone cuts you off in traffic and instantly you hate them. You might
call them *%*#%. Breaking a rule and becoming a trance belief is the
essence of hate.
It's sad sometimes, but if you've ever read the literature of some
anti-hate groups they often hate hate groups. They want to stamp out
prejudice. Those dirty rotten sick bastards in those hate groups.
Years a go the "Man in the Street", the guy who used to say
"Hi Ho Steverino" on the Steve Allen Show, said: "I
hate hate groups." It made me laugh, yet it made me think.
How do we free ourselves of hate? How do we stop others from hating?
How do we remove the impact of hate on ourselves.
We've heard stories of how love and compassion have overcome hate and
predjudice.
Hate and predjudice can be brought down to earth in ourselves through
a number of ways:
(1)Compassion Drills.
(2)Jotting down your exact hateful thoughts and emotions toward
others. Look at your rules that were broached, but more importantly
look at the labels and overgeneralizations you have about another. For
every hateful label or overgeneralization, find 100 positive
characteristics or qualities. Then find 100 neutral characteristics or
qualities. You may also exaggerate that person's or thing's negative
qualities until they seem downright silly. You're dealing with a
trance here.
(3) Hate, if you realize it's not really cost effective emotionally
for you, can be cleared and integrated. You may need to know what
useful function it did for you on one level, even though it was eating
the heck out of you.
(4) If Hate is stuck, you may want to experience it with the Accept
this, Love That exercise.
(5) Forgive the person you hated. Say to yourself with conviction:
"I forgive he, she, them, myself, and the universe for what
happened. They or it were doing what they believed the situation
called for." Gently tap on the webbing between your thumb and
next finger about 20 times while you make these statements.
Now specifically to What Beyond One was asking. I'm not in your shoes
there, but I've had people hate me. If it's bothering you or
disturbing you there may be a number of reasons.
A part of us desires to be socially accepted. Most of us dislike when
others hate us or despise us. We might feel this is "unfair"
or they're really not seeing us as we are. Further what they said or
did impacted on our our hidden belief systems about ourselves. We may
assume that if others hate us there may be something wrong with us at
some level. This can help us trigger some of these old hidden beliefs.
So the basic challenges here are:
(1) Checking out any of our unfairness beliefs and seeing how these
might be impacting on our feelings.
(2) Observing any beliefs we might have about being seen as we
actually are. If we're demanding it, we can be angry.
(3) Check out any beliefs where we might think there's something wrong
with us.
Hidden belief exercises, compassion drills, your favorite clearing
tech come to mind.
Take care, Steve
Name: Mack
Topic: Hate
Sent: 23.17 - 3/26 2001
Yogi, those are some great thoughts on hate. I think you're right, in
that fear is a big factor underlying hate. But other feelings fuel
hate as well, such as envy, resentment, greed, and a feeling of
entitlement.
As you noted, hate withers in the light of truthful exposure, and it
has no inherent strength. It gives the hater a temporary illusion of
power, which makes it appealing to the weak.
But the effect is ephemeral, and perhaps similar to what happens to a
man who, in order to warm himself on a cold winter day, urinates in
his pants. There is a brief moment of delightful comfort followed
by...well, you know.
I have hated in the past, from time to time, but I was always keenly
aware that doing so weakened me, so I deliberately found ways to stop
myself from doing that. This practice has benefitted me a great deal
over the years, I must say.
On the other side of the coin, I always felt energy flowing to me when
people hated me, which several have over the years. For that reason, I
never worried about being liked and have even mildly thrived on
certain people directing their rage toward me.
That was a kind of guilty pleasure though, and I began to feel a bit
like I was kind of taking advantage of them by allowing them to feed
me strength by hating me, so I stopped doing that too. Encouraging
people to hate me that is.
The intersting thing about hate, to me, is this quality of utter
banality, and stupidity, that underlies it. If you look at closeups of
Hitler you'll see an unusual flat dull blankness in his eyes in every
photo, and the man in person was reportedly the most profoundly boring
and insipid person alive when he wasn't giving orders.
That's when he lit up, and so did the people around him. So even
though it's inherently weak and arguably moronic, it's useful not to
underestimate the danger of hate. It's so easy a flame to ignite and
fan, but we're also lucky that truth can so easily put it out.
All the best
Mack
Name: Yogi
Topic: hate
Sent: 22.49 - 3/26 2001
People motivated by hate can do extreme things.
Appreciate them greatly, do lots of clearing on your issues with them.
Watch them closely, and be prepared. Do not let them suck you into
their game, and be fully prepared , willing, and able to take
appropriate countermeaseures when necessary.
Hate is based on fear. Treat them like entities stuck in a repeating
creation. That's actually what they are.
Lots of compassion. But no sympathy. Their actions may be motivated by
fear, but yours are not. You are in control, because you have the
ability to think clearly.
When dealing with entities, the whole trick of the entity is to make
you think they are powerful and in control. It's just smoke. You are
in control, and more powerful. Think about it, you'll see what I mean.
Many hate groups have been taken out. They have been exposed, they
have been financially bankrupted by expensive court cases. Shining the
light on haters is like shining focused awareness on an entity. They
shrivel up pretty quickly. Go public, make sure your whole town knows
this person (or people) hate you. When they know that everything they
do against you is under the public spotlight, I think you'll see a
real fast cooling down. Once they understand that you are prepared and
you know what you're doing, they usually back off.
Remember, haters are basically very afraid people.
-Yogi
Name: Yogi
Topic: Lamas are people, too
Sent: 22.28 - 3/26 2001
I think the Tibet thing is really fascinating.I watched that movie
about the whole thing that came out a few years back, the one that was
directed by Martin Scorcese. The movie was approved as being realistic
by His Holiness himself. I have watched His Holiness speak on the net.
He's a very, very compassionate being. I don't know all that stuff
about being the 14th incarnation of the Buddha, maybe it's a myth, but
myths can serve very real and powerful functions in society and in
people's lives. The Tibetans remind me of the American Indians. They
are really earthy, and have a great sense of humour. You might be
surprised to find out that they know a few things about Peyote too.
I went to a concert of a famous Tibetan singer, who was doing a
benefit tour for her people a couple of years ago, I couldn't
pronounce her name, much less remember it. Anyway, we were a little
late, and the hall was sold out. My buddy and I and about 20 other
people were left just standing around behind the theater. Then someone
poked their head out of the back door and said to wait. It turns out
that when the singer heard that we were locked out of the concert, she
felt so bad about this that she held off the opening of her show for
about 20 minutes while she came out and sang a couple of songs for us
just there in the parking lot. That's the kind of people they are.
Good folks.
They have had their internal squabbles, and they are a political bunch
as much as any ethnic group. There was a real bitter squabble, I think
it's still going on, when His Holiness made some comments about a
poarticular wrathful deity that is connected with certain lineages.
Even His Holiness can incur lots of anger by dissing someone's
cherished god.
The Tibetans were squashed for the same reasons we squashed the
American Indians. The Chinese have since gone on to deforest and
ecologically trash quite a bit of the Tibetan Plateau. True acts of
stupidity, if you ask me.
The Chinese are a complex people. I have met some really nice Chinese
people. This is totally at odds with some of the things I see their
government doing.
Then again, I feel the same way about our government too. I guess
politics and war are kind of the same everywhere.
-Yogi
Name: Daku
Topic: Stale stuff
Sent: 20.43 - 3/26 2001
Been out of town for a few days and the board has moved on to new
subjects. I have some communications for Cyndy and Lyle. C, I will
email you soon. L, will you pleae contact me off board?
tx,
Daku
Name: Daku
Topic: Tibet
Sent: 20.33 - 3/26 2001
Mack- You might want to read Freedom in Exile, the auto biography of
the Dalai Lama. It is a real eye opener as to the very human emotions
and foibles of the tulkus and lamas. They got into petty squabbles and
even physical fights with each other accordiing to the Dalai Lama
himself. Interesting reading. Really bursts any idealistic projections
one might have about Tibetan holy men.
As to why they were overrun by China, Steve is right, they were way
outgunned, but another major factor was that the nations that they
reached out to for help, the US being one of them, refused to lend a
hand because of what they themselves wanted to get from China.
Business as usual. Money is more important than human life.
Daku
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: Hate and the Dalai Lama
Sent: 19.31 - 3/26 2001
I admire the Dalai Lama. This guy is so cool, ice water must run in
his veins. L. Ron Hubbard said the Dalai was "a problems release
like you've never seen before".
No wonder. The guy is like the 13th incarnation of the Living Buddha
of compassion. Or something like that.
The guy left his home country 40 years ago with a hundred thousand of
his followers. He now travels the world spreading the good word, and
getting Tibetan Buddhism to places he'd never have dreamed of in his
first dozen incarnations. People all over the free world love this
guy, even if they don't know diddley about his beliefs.
Of course, he's not very popular with the unholy bunch that gave him
the boot from Tibet. To them, he's the evil separationist criminal who
they suspect of hatching plots to take their re-education camps away.
They really hate. Soon they will be dust and molecules.
What does he care? Pretty soon, he'll be the 14th incarnation of the
Buddha of Compassion.
Beyond One asks how to handle hate. Don't. Just take the long view,
and don't let hate handle you.
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Love vs Hate
Sent: 19.21 - 3/26 2001
Beyond One,
Awhile back we had a discussion on what the opposite of love was. I'm
not sure you were a regular participant here. So I really would like
your thoughts on this.
Do you see hatred as the opposite of love?
Now, I'm still holding out that the opposite of love is fear. And that
we hate out of fear.
But then again, what I define love as, is probably a whole lot
different than what others define it as. Sort of like that God
thinging. Although I haven't been able to come up with an adequate
label, I know it isn't what most perceive God to be.
Is Hatred in the same boat as Fear? Just an illusion?
How do we help others to see it's all make believe?
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: Phooey!
Sent: 19.07 - 3/26 2001
I'm with NAP. The cops in the Rodney King state trial had plenty of
cause to whack that guy. He's lucky the woman officer he charged
didn't waste him. While I regret that they probably whacked him a few
extra times, I contend it was adrenalin rather than criminal intent.
The Clinton/Reno decision to retry those officers for federal civil
rights violations, and to move the trial to downtown L.A., was one of
the more sickening instances of pandering to a voting bloc this
country has seen in a hundred years.
There are plenty of instances of police brutality and hate, but the
Rodney King incident wasn't one of them. The entire tape, which
actually demonstrated an excellent degree of compassion on the part of
the officers, was only shown a few times on TV. It was too long to
maintain viewer interest.
It didn't need an NLP guy to convince me. When a guy who has led
police cars on a high speed chase through crowded streets jumps out of
his car, charges a lady cop with her gun drawn, and laughs at demands
to halt: ho ho ho.
The sad part is that if the police officers had shot him dead dead
dead at that point, no one would have questioned their judgement.
Instead it became a civil rights case and a political football.
And worse: police are now taught that it's better to shot to kill,
because the dead don't show up to testify in court. In my city in the
years following the guilty verdicts in the civil rights case, clearly
insane people have been killed for threatening officers with a fork.
Another with a twig from a tree. Or a rock. If the cops kill them,
their butt is covered. If they swarm and injure them, they can expect
to hand their kid's college fund to the "poor victim's"
attorney in civil court.
So here's the tech tip: for a long and happy life,when the peace
officer approaches your vehicle, keep your hands in plain sight, and
greet him with courtesy and respect. Not only don't you know what he
has had to contend with today, but you don't know if he just came from
a training film regarding how to hang onto his house and retirement
fund.
Keep breathing, and trust the police force
Obi
Name: Teko
Topic: Lyle, Steve Karl
Sent: 18.48 - 3/26 2001
Lyle, Steve K.: The Cortical Incident Runner rocks.
Pleaz, Pleaz don't remember Alec Guiness as Obi Wan. Such a travesty.
Remember him in Bridge on the River Kwai. Didn't he get the Oscar for
that? I saw it last year on either AMC or Turner Classics for the
first time and Alec was great!
Teko
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Steve Karl
Sent: 17.43 - 3/26 2001
Steve Karl:
I love the M.G. and a slew of other Mensing techs, but if I was to
take one tech with me to a desert isle it would be the Cortical
Incident Runner. I absolutely believe the C.I.R. would clear a Rhino
is a suit of stainless steel armor. It packs dynamyte and clears movie
scenes not just single feelings. It works at a number of dynamic
levels. I really think it is a terrific combination of breathing,
eventing, and that neurovascular head configuration with the fingers
beneath the nose notch. I don't think it even gets stopped by
allergies. It bulldozes through them. There's three different clearers
and my favorite headgrasp. That headgrasp is a marvel. The
neurvasculars are covered, the notich beneath the nose which keep
flows going the right way, and the palm over the front cortical region
with the neurovascular pinch. Simple to do and very, very potent. It
is a totally devistating clearing machine and simple to use for most
people.
As far as the police situation in California goes I do know for a fact
the defense team for the policeman used an NLP person and he advised
them to run the beatings over and over as much as they could. Most of
us pedestrians know nothing of the event prior to the beatings. We're
only privey to what the newsmedia shows or reports. We're not thos
police later convicted or am I thinking of another case? False memory
syndrome on my behalf. I did think excessive force was used after the
man was down. He was down.
Not trying to stir the politcal...much. The police have a tough job to
do. I have no doubt they are under lots of stress from bad schedules
to having their lives in danger. You never know when you ask someone
to step out of their car or hand over their licsence. It's every bit
as dangerous as being a soldier in some cities. There are some bad
hombres out there.
Lyle Talbot
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Hypnosis & Memories
Sent: 17.25 - 3/26 2001
Fred:
This is an important question you ask.
Hypnosis is very reliable for retrieving memories as long as you don't
do the following:
1--ask the person a leading question. If you do they will likely
confabulate (hallucinate) an event in a deep trace state or dreaming.
2--Set up a framework. You ask questions which pressupose a certain
reality. If you do this the hypnotized will most assuredly create an
event coinciding with the framework.\
These two problematic approaches have wrecked hypnosis as a tool in
forensic discovery. Hypnotically gained information can not be used in
most states as evidence.
However self-hypnotic trances are wonderful for bringing feelings and
memories to the surface as long as no leading questions or
presuppositions are utilized. Simple and natural trancework work very
well. Just allow your unconscious to unfold in its own natural way. It
can bring stuff to the surface that is not dreamed into creation. Up
on the tech page there is provided those open natural trance drills.
They create a relaxed and open setting and no frameworks or leading
questions that might create confabulation. However never ask yourself
if you remember being assualted or anything like that, because chances
are you will create a false memory of such a thing happening. Also
never go down there with the intention of finding specific events. If
you do--presto you'll come up with everything you "thought"
happened to you. Just be open to anything that surfaces.
If you suspect you've been traumatized--do this work with a therapist
who knows about false memories and their production. Otherwise you'll
run the probability of getting something that never occurred.
It's easy to see how some past life regressionists, using old style
authroitarian hypnosis are able to bring up some silly past lives by
asking their subjects leading questions or setting up pressupositions
that bring socalled past lives to the surface. Now It's entirely
possible that there may be past lives--but they should not come from
the region of dreamtime where I suspect many of those sorts of
phenomena do. Like UFO abductions and the like, these are easily
manufactured in dreamtime. Once as an experiement with a friend, he
asked me leading questions about being abducted. I then had a rapid
and very vivid memory of my ride through the heavens and the
operation. And a good laugh afterwards. I had to go under again to get
that silly thing out of there. It's very easy to discreate memories in
dreamtime also.
Other methods for bringing up memories would be direct feelings work,
being very relaxed and open, doing left nasal breathwork, circular
breathing and even circular breathing in a hot tub, biocircuit
breathing, space synchrony drills. These are excellent. Seated
meditation will eventually spill memories into conscious view. All are
excellent. Don't force it and you'll get your memories as your
unconscious is prepared.
If you want to know more about confabulation, false memories, and
hypnosis in forensic settings you might wish to look up Martin Orne or
false memory syndrome on the internet. I'm certain there's something
posted.
Lyle Talbot
Name: Steven Karl
Topic: Weekend
Sent: 17.21 - 3/26 2001
I can see that I missed a wild weekend here. Too bad. I would have had
lots of comments.
First of all, I think Steve Mensings' post regarding the problems of
beginning the Emoclear tech was outstanding. It was sort of like the
basic training for beginners and lead down the road. Perhaps that
should be up on the Tech Page, in one form or another. Steve is
absolutely right about CIR. In my experience I had problems using
Emoclear, but the CIR cuts through like a knife-- even better than the
MG.
It was Alec Guiness who played Obi Wan and died last year (about mid
year). And I don't think he was too happy about forever being linked
to that character.
My biggest contention is Steve's comment about the officers being
acquitted at the Rodney King trial because of the NLP expert. I think
a bigger factor was that once the entire tape was played (not the 8
second exerpt) it showed how justified the officers were in their
actions. But enough said about that. I don't want to get deleted due
to politics.
Name: BeyondOne
Topic: Hatred
Sent: 16.21 - 3/26 2001
Mack, I'm not sure what you said, but I'm hip that a Mac 10 ain't
necessarily a new OS. So no disagreements here.
I've been involved with more hatred today than I think most people see
in two days. Oh hell. Anyway, I'm really curious to get all you
fat-brain's take on hatred and how to process it. My hole card has
always been forgiveness, but I tell you, that completely struck out
today. Any better ideas?
Name: Mack
Topic: Tibet, Cyndy's Post
Sent: 16.01 - 3/26 2001
Thanks for the perspective on Tibet, Steve. I never thought of the
karmic consequences of yak rustling.
Cyndy, RE: "Everybody does what they believe to be the right
thing".
This paraphrases an idea I personally subcribe to strongly. However, I
ran that by Obi and he whipped out his light sabre and cut me off at
the knees.
Basically what I said was "Everyone does the best he/she
can" and I didn't get a chance to expand on my statement before
withering before Obi's scorn. Sometimes I'm a wimp.
I might preface this by stating that obviously, most of us (in theory
anyway) can do a lot more than they actually, and do it a lot better.
Few people have no room for improvement whatsoever.
Still, in contrast to what we COULD be doing, what we end up actually
doing, in my view, is primarily a function of what we believe we are
limited by in ourselves, and what we believe contrains us in the
world.
In other words, beliefs about what we can and can't do, as well as
beliefs about what is and isn't possible, really limit us from being
"all we can be" and I believe that this limiting factor
operates to a greater or lesser extent in everyone.
For a superachiever like Steve it might kick in as a belief that he
can only work 20 hours a day and not a minute more, and some suffering
client knocking on his door at 3 am is just going to have to wait. In
reality of course, Steve could probably easily squeeze out yet another
half-hour a day of work, but he believes he needs a certain amount of
rest and so forth.
I see the same rule working in the lives of derelicts I have met.
Quite often they seem to firmly believe that literally anything and
everything that might be acomplished in life is impossible for them,
OR, even when they do believe that it would be possible to live a
"normal" life they believe they don't deserve it, and so
forth. These are lousy examples but you get the idea. It's just
beliefs attached to more beliefs, like bunches of grapes.
Paraphrasing scripture, "as you believe so shall it be done unto
you" and this really rings true to me. The bottom line to me is,
everyone deserves compassion because I believe that if they only
changed a few key beliefs, their lives would be completely different.
And in that respect, that makes everyone just like me.
Well that's my opinion anyway and even though my belief about this
could be wrong, I don't care: I'm not changing it antime soon. And
besides, I do lock my doors and I also carry a gun whenever I think
it's necessary...to me this kind of behavior is not inconsistent with
being a compassionate person.
OK, I'm bracing for the counterattack. Let 'er rip.
All the best
mack
Name: Fred
Topic: Repressed memories
Sent: 08.28 - 3/26 2001
Is there a way to recover repressed memories without using hypnosis?
I've heard that hypnosis is unreliable in recovering memories. I can't
remember my childhood although i can't pinpoint any explanation for
this.
Name: Matt S
Topic: PS- John Gastly
Sent: 08.18 - 3/26 2001
John G.-
I forgot to respond to your question a few days ago. If you wouldn't
mind, I'd prefer an email.
Name: Matt S
Topic: Surface feelings vs gut feelings
Sent: 08.15 - 3/26 2001
Hi all. I'm catching up on the reading from this weekend. Funny how
one post can give rise to a stimulating conversation...
Anyway, Steve posting something about "trusting your gut."
He made mention of the difference between surface feelings and gut
feelings. The surface feelings just being a reflection of
often-limiting beliefs, while gut feelings being more intuitive.
How do you get past the surface feelings and gain access to these gut
feelings? I tend to be more analytical. I'm sure I use my gut to some
degree, but if I were to try to consciously use this skill, I wouldn't
know where to begin. Any ideas?
Take care,
Matt
Name: Lurker
Topic: Fasting and meditation
Sent: 08.13 - 3/26 2001
Has anyone here ever tried fasting for a quieter mind and what type of
meditation would go best with a 3 day fast for a beginner to
meditation?
Name: Grieving Public
Topic: Sad Realization
Sent: 08.10 - 3/26 2001
Last night's Oscar ceremony included the memorial section honoring
those who had died in 2000. One of them was the actor who played Obi
Wan in the Star Wars Trilogy.
It was the first I had heard of it.
I was deeply saddened to learn of his passing.
Does anyone know when he died?
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Ross: Somataform Disorder
Sent: 07.14 - 3/26 2001
Hi Ross:
I aplogize for those who would make light of your suffering. We have a
disproportianate number of jokers here. I see no mean spiritedness in
this, rather they are shedding another light on your reality which I
am certain is painful. Hopefully there will come a time in your future
when you can look back and see what Woody Allen and Richard Lewis have
portrayed in numerous shticks.
The somatform disorder you describe sounds like something the DSM
would call hypochondriasis. This when we fear illnesses or dire
outcomes from actual physical symptoms like you're describing.
Basically we're having phycal symptoms and interpreting them through
the filter that something dredful will happen.
This happens in a heightened way in panic disorder when
hyperventalation is added to the mix of this interpretation and
creates a powerful trance situation where the panic trauma can be
resisted and implanted.
Having hypochondriasis can be excruciating. Especially if the person
having it has a profound fear of death or loss of control.
At the heart of this challenge is two powerful beliefs:
"Something catastrophic is happening" "Death is really
horrible"
These beliefs and their feelings are often enlisted as a defense
mechanism agaist feeling overwhelmed in other areas of your life. If
you're feeling out of control or are anxious and this is overwhelming
you, your unconscious can take this disaster filter and add it to any
sensations you're having like shortness of breath, tingling, dizzyness,
skipped heart beats, gastric acidity, failed memory, headaches and the
like. People really strongly identify with this goings on to the point
of really hypnotically agonizing about it. People will obsess on these
symptoms bigtime. This is a natural defense against feeling overwhelm
only it works too darn well. As they say in that old Chinese tale that
the Core Trans people mention: You're burning down the house to roast
a pig. The defense becomes a problem.
There is much that can be done for hypochondriasis. I'm glad that you
recognize you have a challenge here because it will make your mission
easier. Although I'm sure you can get swept up by this process in a
heartbeat.
Somatform challenges can be learned from modeling parents behavior. If
parents or caregivers had a tendency to experience their conflicts and
strong emotions as actual physical symptoms, the chances are you'll
pick this up also. Overprotectoiveness can also spur this problem.
Having undergone actual severe illness can traumatize us and leave us
with this filter. Having learned that death is an awful event can
heighten this challenge's impact. Or even having a parent die when
your young may have you fretting and worrying about your own symptoms
and sensations.
In overcoming hypocondriasis it may be helpful to list your various
fearful beliefs and evaluations of your symptoms. Also pay close
attention to your beliefs about death. Ontological dred is very
powerful stuff.
We can fear the loss of control, great ongoing hellish pain,
separation from loved ones, loss of a sense of self, and a fear of
chaos and uncertainty and what we filter on that.
The above beliefs and feelings can be targets for clearing with
various techs. Feeling your feelings is again an important area. This
is where the overwhelm get's started before the unconscious swing over
to the filters, symptoms, and preoccupation with death. Active
Feeling, Mindfulness, Focusing do well here.
It might be extremely valuable to look at your feelings and beliefs
about death. There's an old cognitive behavioral exercise called
chasing the rat down the rat hole. Here you simply keep asking the
question: What can be worse than this? Example: You think death by a
heart attack would be awful. You might ask well what might be more
awful than that? Dying of a heart attack with more heightened pain and
taking a longer time. And what would be worse than that? Dying of the
heart attack even more slowly and painfully and then discovering they
were going to bury me and damn I'm even more fearful of suffocation.
You can go on and on and bring up beliefs here. Sometimes this
exagerates them and makes them silly to you. Or even more important
the situations seem like something you really could stand. Really
being able to stand those situations is one key to letting go of the
fear of death. You don't even have to know there's an afterlife or
that consciousness is ongoing and eternal. Or maybe some of you have a
sense of safety around the notion that consciousness may eventually be
snuffed out. You can't lose either way. The stuff that really bothers
people are the images of a continuous stuck state of unrelenting pain
and chaos and the meanings they attach to this.
Hey if you were without your body you might not have anything to feel?
And if you were still in agony, don't you think we might just give it
up and desensitize to it after awhile? I'd like to expand a little
more on the subject of death and beliefs. But the someone's here and
I've got to go.
Take care, Steve
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Beyond One and Motivation
Sent: 06.38 - 3/26 2001
Beyond One,
Now that the sillinest of the weekend is past, perhaps we could resume
discussion of your question...
Does anyone have any good argument against the theory that
self-generated human motivation comes down to desire or resistance?
My reply "Everybody always does what they believe to be the right
thing".....was my own concoction, but was a theory I explored
from a statement I heard Harry Palmer make in a talk given in 1987. I
think he was addressing a question about "where do beliefs come
from?" and he gave the example of the belief, "Basically,
everyone does what they feel is the right thing".
Now, it sounded from your post that you were leading us somewhere. Is
the basis for motiviation the feeling that it is the right thing to
do?
Just waiting for the other shoe to fall....
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Tibet
Sent: 06.10 - 3/26 2001
Hey Mack:
Bad things happen to good people. Or even average people. Or even
challenged people. Personally I'm not much of a believer in some
descriptions of karma.
And group karma seems way beyond me. I see multiple, multiple causes
for any single event. And even then I see us all part of this
interconnected holographic blur. Not everyone was virtuous in Tibet.
I'm sure they had yak poachers.
Here's some important things to think about:
(1) All those Tibetans still living there are not necessarily adepts
or yogins. You can be a Buddhist in name only, yet not practice it to
any great extent.
Just like there are Sunday go to church Christian's who hit it and
quit it after Sunday. Not everyone is virtuous in an entire country.
(2) It may be that the creme de la creme of Tibetan tulkus and
teachers have fled to Nepal, India, France, Northern California,
Boulder Colorado, and New Jack City. If you want to learn Tibetan Yoga
you don't go to Tibet anymore. They're out of there.
(3) The Dali Lama is hardly a poor soul. If someone's putting that out
then they're distorting my perceptions of the book displays at all the
major book sellers. The Dali Lama is generally at the top of the
charts in the bestselling categories of religion, spirituality, and
self-help. He must have over 25 titles out there and a bunch are
selling briskly. I doubt the Pope comes close anymore. The Dali Lama
has access to monies from several foundations including Richard Gere's.
Multi-millions I'm sure. I'm certain he doesn't miss many meals. He
has supporters a plenty and he's frequently attending banquets. I'm
positive he gets apples, oranges, and springwater everytime he appears
on tv talk shows. Hell if he's broke he can come hang at my place and
we'll feed him. No problem.
Everytime I've seen him he looks like his caloric intake is up to
snuff and he's getting into a stretch limo. We once curtsied to
eachother on a midtown Manhatten street several years ago. He looked
like a very fine fellow and owns a fine bass speaking voice.
(4) Think of Oceanside being surrounded by the rest of California and
all the police forces from all of California were called on to take
over Oceanside. How do you think the Oceanside police department would
stand up to the massed police forces of San Diego, LA, San Fran,
Sacremeto, Barstow, and Van Nuys's. I'm leaving Victorville out of
this scrap. I don't want a carnage...Tibet was outgunned and outmanned.
It is a cold and not really well populated country. Remember your war
comics during the 50's? When we were fighting it out in Korea the
Chinese army was always being racistly caste as this infinite yellow
wave. The media talked about the Chinese hordes or yellow massed
armies or yellow waves of peril. In short Red China had a monster
army. Perhaps the largest in all the world. Tibet had a couple of
thousand and some yaks. It was like Myke Tyson pounding Tiny Tim.
(5) Mack the Dali Lama doesn't need those glasses. If he wants to read
his own words he's got more audiotapes out there than you could shake
a bullroarer at.
The Tibetans I've met here in America don't seem to be struggling. I
think it's a bummer that those folks lost their land. That was over 50
years ago. I don't see Tibet being freed anytime soon unless Red China
has a revolution. The Tibetans abroad have made a great adaptation and
have enriched our American culture and spirituality. The loss of that
country may have been a blessing in disguise. Although it hurt a
people and disenfranchised Buddhism from that country, it led to
Tibetan Buddhism being propagated abroad. That's not bad in my book.
Take care, Steve
Name: Mack
Topic: Tibetan Ignorance
Sent: 00.07 - 3/26 2001
OK gang, once again I get to expose my ignorance for your amusement.
I'm really curious about something and if can get an answer that makes
any sense, it's worth it to get embarrassed.
I understand that Tibet may have more spiritually-oriented oriented
(Buddhist) people per capita than possibly any country in the world.
Why are they still occupied by, of all people, Chinese Communists
after 50 years? Why are they the only country in the world in that
position? I don't get it. They are apparently almost slaves under
Chinese rule and have practically no economy, and live hand to mouth.
Is this just a coincidence?
And while I'm on the subject, what's with the Dalai Lama? I've only
read a few of his quotes but he seems like a sage and he wouldn't be
the dalai Lama (I can only assume anyway) unless he were one of the
more enlightened (or should I say spiritually evolved) men on the
planet.
So why is he a penniless exile who is so myopic he reportedly can
scarcely see even with coke-bottle glasses? I know it sounds stupid,
but I'm not trying to be a wise-ass with these questions: what gives
with all this? Aren't these all really terrific people? I know, bad
things happen to good people at least as often as to bad, but the
Tibetan thing seems really strange to me. Is their situation just an
example of "virtue is its' own punishment"? Bad karma? Any
thoughts on this puzzle will be welcome.
All the best
Mack
Name: Ross
Topic: I fear something is wrong with me
Sent: 21.47 - 3/25 2001
I often fear that something is really wrong with me. Let me try to
explain. Sometimes I may have a shortness of breath or numbness in my
fingers and I will think that these feelings mean that I have a deadly
disease. My psychiatrist told me I have something called a somataform
disorder. It took me a week before I looked that word up to find out
exactly what he meant because even thinking about that made me scared.
Often I think the doctors are withholding information about my
condition. It gets that bad. I worry almost daily and hate it. But
most of all I worry about winding up dead. The thought of dying really
frightens me. If I get anything feeling weird with me I automatically
assume that it's something very bad. In the last year I've been
terrified about having Lou Gerhig's Disease, Hodgkinson's and liver
cancer. I am being perfectly serious here. I have little if any peace
of mind. When I get these ideas there's nothing much I can do except
go to my physician who probably is getting sick of seeing me every few
weeks. He grimaces now when he sees me in his waiting room. I would
like to know anything I could about doing something about this because
it is making my life a nightmare. Only two weeks ago I had insomnia
from staying up all night worrying about tingling in my fingers. It
really seems very real to me at the time and very scarey. I hate being
this way. It's messing me up at work and now I'm very worried about
losing my job. My psychiatrist thinks I think the worst. So if you
know anything that might help me out I would be beyond thankful.
Ross
Name: Svengali Jones
Topic: Attraction Tech
Sent: 16.49 - 3/25 2001
This guy has created "tech" for picking up women using NLP.
If you saw Magnolia, supposedly the Tom Cruise character was loosely
based on the guy who developed "Speed Seduction".
http://www.seduction.com
Name: Headgear Biocircuit
Topic: Sorry to be so dumb
Sent: 16.34 - 3/25 2001
So you do need to build the normal biocircuit with the two copper
plates? And then along with that you need two screens that go up and
are placed on the back and the front of the head and held in place
with a piece of elastic? Is it clear what I am asking? I guess what I
am asking is do you build the normal biocircuit and then replace the
two handheld copper tubes with two screens that go on your head?
I am really looking forward to building that orgone accumulating iron
lung. I am going to place that next to my float chamber electro-shock
unit and my acme brand kundalini awakening sarcophagus.
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Headgear Biocircuit
Sent: 15.15 - 3/25 2001
Headgear biocircuit:
You'll require two separate screens for the front and rear of your
head. They will be held in place by headband. The screens will replace
your handles in this configuration while your hands will be placed on
your heart region and solar plexus. The advantage will be that you
won't have to hold your hands up for 30 minutes while you lay there
clearing. Head grasps however can be made more comfortable if you lay
on a sofa and prop your elbows up with cushions and the sofa back
rest.
Within the next few days I will supply complete schematics for "Orgone
Accumulating Iron Lung".
This is mankind's best hope for clearing dirty and sick thoughts. The
clearing resolves itself in a creshendo of ever increasing apocalyptic
visions. Three Badgers appear in the East.
Take care, Steve
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Difficult: Is this a concept to be cleared
Sent: 14.35 - 3/25 2001
Difficult:
You're onto something. It's a good idea to clear the idea: "it's
difficult". Clearing "difficult" can cut down on
resistance to doing the work.
Even when we blow out the concept or feeling of difficult, there may
be skills and understandings to learn to keep the process sturdy and
working.
We can even install confidence about the process which can help no end
in handling the notion that we can't pull the switch. However
believing we can will still not take care of several items including
poor targeting or handling targets which our intention is really not
aligned with. Being divested of the idea of "difficult"
helps keep us from considering quitting when the process may be
slowed.
Take care, Steve
Name: XXXX
Topic: Gittin' Sum
Sent: 13.19 - 3/25 2001
Dear Needs,
This is how to get some. First make a list of the things that interest
you most. It's ok to put sex at the top of the list, but you're really
looking for something else that interests you.
The world is filled with SIGs (special interest groups) so take your
top 3 interests and use the internet to locate SIGs in your area.
Attend a SIG meeting or lunch with SIG members or form your own SIG
group and you'll certainly find your preferred sex mate among the
SIGs. Sex is a much better "bonus" interest than the primary
interest. More like dessert than the main course. Then if you get shot
down, at least you got to talk with someone who was interesting.
Name: Yogi
Topic: I wanna beli-e-e-ve!
Sent: 13.17 - 3/25 2001
Here's my crutches!! Lord, take them away from me!!!
Ooops... (Crack! CRUNCH! SPlat!!!)
Hey, can someone help me get up here?
OK, OK,
Want to believe: There are a few approaches to getting you going. One
is to work with someone who is skilled with the Emoclear techniques
and can assist you.
One is to take Steve's suggestion and email him.
Another thing that occurs to me is that you might be trying to clear
in a feelings-based mode, but you have some blocks on your ability to
feel. For this, back off and work with the energy-based processes, and
along with these work with the Active Feeling tech and the Grok
Drills.
Understand that resistance to feeling, emptiness, non-feeling,
boredom, are all actually feelings themselves. It is not that
non-feeling is simply what's there: non-feeling is a creation and has
to be put there by a person. Irritation, frustration are also
feelings, as is annoyance. Thoughts like "I'm not getting
this," "Everyone else can do this stuff, but not me,"
and the similar are actually thought creations.
The expectations can be a killer. We read about non-dual states here
and all kinds of stuff. Then we sit to practice a clearing technique
and the mind jumps right in:"Where's the non-dual? Where's the
lucid dreams? Where's the meditative states? How come this isn't
happening? What's wrong with me? etc, etc..."
Practice techniques that develop patience. Breath into the belly
slowly to help calm the mind. This not the circular breathing from the
upper chest cavity described to bring up feelings. You already have
lots of stuff up, that's not the problem. The problem is that you are
over-identified with your stuff and can't separate yourself out from
your thoughts. Therefore, slow, deep circular breathing will help
spread the thoughts out a bit. Whenever you notice a space between any
two thoughts, put all your attention right into that space.
In other words, shift the focus. Like when looking at a picture, put
your attention on the space outside the picture, around it's frame.
And in your mind, shift your focus from your thoughts, and put your
focus on the space between the thoughts.
When you have quieted the mind some (you don't have to be a
perfectionist here, we're just talking a relatively quiet mind, not
oceanic silence), then you can start with the Active Feelings tech,
and just do a little bit at the time. Read the whole exercise, but
then just take one of the sections after the asterisks at a time and
work with it. Anytime your mind starts racing again, go back to the
slow belly breathing and calm it again.
There's a trick to reining in the racehorse thoughts here, but with
practice, you will become able to create a calm space relatively
quickly.
Once the mind is quieter, and you have some of your powers of
attention and concentration back, then you can run a tech. Run one
tech, or even one part of one tech at a time. Slow. Easy. Space.
Quiet. These are a few things you need to get on familiar terms with.
I think when you have achieved a calmer mind, you will find your
attention is more under your control, and you will get better results
with the techs. And as you restore your awareness that you can feel,
things will really start progressing satisfactorily.
-Yogi
Name: Difficult?
Sent: 12.08 - 3/25 2001
Hey Steve,
You tell "I want to believe" that clearing is difficult.
Isn't this a concept that we could clear in order to make it easy? Or
maybe it doesn't work that way.
Name: Yogi
Topic: Sex
Sent: 11.07 - 3/25 2001
Hey sex freaks,
I am definitely a prude by upbringing. My folks never mentioned sex
around me. I was blown away one night when I walked in on them at age
7 or 8 because a bad dream had scared me, and there they were in
missionary position. So my mom tried to explain to me that it was
normal what they were doing. But the way they reacted when I walked in
wasn't normal: they untangled at lightning speed and there was a real
sense of embarrassment in the air.
I started to unfold normally around age 12 and kissing the girls and
petting. But then I went to a new England prep school for oine year
that was mostly boys. Since I wasn't into same sex sex, I just didn't
have any. I spent the rest of my entire teenage years sexually alone,
feeling quite guilty masturbating, and generally unhappy with the lot.
I was a partier and all my frieds were experimenting sexually too, but
somehow I got left out of all that.
Finally, at age 20 in my freshman year of college, I met a nice young
lady through music and dancing, and she also liked one of my favorite
things: LSD. So at age 20 I finally lost my virginity while tripping.
It was wuite an initiation. After that sex combined with LSD was my
preferred way to go for awhile. Of course, I was reading books about
tantra and stuff at the time too.
Then, somewhat later, an interest in Osho and his books and his people
started up. The way Osho speaks about Tantra is absolutely
mind-blowing. Tantra groups among the sannyasins became quite popular,
and they would explore sex energy all the way from breathing
techniques, to psychological conditioning around sex, to positions,
and doing it in groups, or alone. They even explored the tantric
aspects of masturbation. Many of the female sannyasins were making
money in the sex trade, either by dancing, peepshows, or outright
prostitution. The theme of the day was to work out your sex trip.
Osho acquired the moniker of the Sex Guru in India and around the
world. Lots of myths about what the sannyasins were doing were
propogated. This was mostly in the so-called Poona I years, 1975 to
1980. The whole focus on the Ranch was much different, and not so much
emphasis was put on sex there.
Sex was always explored through a spiritual perspective. The point was
to move through sex to see if it opened dooorsways to meditation. I
had some really profound experinces with bringing the energy to a
peak, and then turning it all inward instead of letting it go. The
states of silence and expansion are awesome.
One of the greatest understandings Osho brought was that the sexual
experience can have many different forms of expression. He talked
about "valley orgasms" which were very relaxed and expanded
states, and how they differed with rushing through the peak-style
orgasms.
Sex jokes were a regular part of his discourses, as he realized that
it would help us loosen up around the whole subject.
Of all the groups of people I have moved with concerning
clearing/growth/spirituality the sannyasins were far and away the most
realistic, and usually the most experienced, about sex. Osho taught
that sex energy was life energy, it should be embraced and celebrated,
and that sex energy was the raw material of spiritual enlightenment.
He said that the energy of sex is connected with the second chakra,
and that the heart center could not open up until the sex center was
open. He taught that sex was a necessary step towards spiritual
enlightenment, and that growth in the spiritual sense would be stopped
if sex was repressed.
He often said that just as the lotus flower has its roots in the mud,
the energy of spiritual enlightenment has its roots in sex energy.
To my knowledge, he was the only major world spiritual figure that
talked so directly and candidly about sex and its relationship to
spirituality. He was controversial for it. One of his early and most
famous series of discourses is called "From Sex to
Superconsciousness". He gave these talks when some well to do
disciples asked him to speak on the subject of "spiritual
love". He lost almost two thirds of his diciples after these
talks, who at that time were mostly Indians. They simply could not
accept what he was saying. When he was asked why he spoke about sex
when he was given the topic of spiritual love, he said that
understanding love was impossible without first understanding sex.
To me, it is no wonder that 90% of couples problems are related to
sex. They want to love, but they have not understood sex. The seed and
the mud is there first, and the flower blooms only after a period of
growing through the mud.
Most people put the cart before the horse, and want this great love
relationship, but they are clueless about their own sexual energy. So
no wonder!
Related to this is the way that society, and in particular religion,
has supressed sexuality down thourh the ages, because when you control
someone's sex energy, you can easily manipulate them. But this is
another topic which could be a long discussion in itself.
Basically, the understanding is that it is not your fault for being
sexually screwed up: society has screwed you up on sex since your were
in the womb. But it is one's own responsibility to work with one's own
sex energy, discover the truth about it, experiemnet with it, and open
it up, if you want to progress to the higher experiences of
consciousness.
If you have an understanding of your own sexual energy, you will be
more relaxed and confident in a relationship. You will attract a
clearer kind of mate.
Sex becomes more easy and natural.
Tantric practices can be good. I know some couples who have made a
strict rule: keep the daily problems out of the bedroom. They even
make a separate little room for sex only, and make it real nice with
incense, lighting, and music, like a sacred place. When lovemaking,
leave the dirty laundry outside the bedroom door, and put all your
attention on being as appreciative, loving, and exciting to your
partner as possible. It seems like it works for them, anyway.
Hail to the Sex Guru!
-Yogi
Topic: Headgear Biocrcuit 2
Sent: 09.45 - 3/25 2001
I am a little confused about the Headgear Biocircuit. Is it just two
copper screens connected together with speaker wire and put on your
head with an elastic band or do you need to have the two copper sheets
under your neck and lower back and have these connected to two copper
screens that you attach to your head, front and back? Please help!
Name: Headgear Biocircuit
Sent: 09.30 - 3/25 2001
Hey y'all....I've been thinking about building one of those headgear
biocircuits Steve mentioned at one point...what have been your
experiences with that....does it work as well as the headholds?
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: I Want to Believe
Sent: 09.22 - 3/25 2001
I want to believe:
Hey buddy--it's every bit as difficult as it looks. And it can be made
even more difficult when we overlook or neglect certain elements.
Although you may read glowing reports here about the various techs,
everyone struggles a bit at first.
Look with most tech you don't even have to believe. You can totally
disbelieve it and it will still clear when its run right and proper
targets are utilized.
But you're getting good feedback from your frustration.
Something is missing and I don't blame you if you feel locked up and
believe it won't work for you.
Old Rome was not built in a single day and neither is patience.
Patience comes from sticking with something even when you're not
getting your desired initial results. This can be powerful tech
itself.
I'd recommend a simple head grasp tech to start to build your
confidence and to begin to show you results.
I would recommend the Cortical Incident Runner for starters. It has
three clearers working at the same time so showing results will come
easier.
The Cortical Incident Runner posseses a head grasp that channels
energy into the frontal cortex and also at the same time influences
the neurovascular points on the upper forehead. This head grasp sans
the other add ons will clear as an energy clearer.
The Cortical Incident Runner contains one of nature's most powerful
clearers the circular breath. This breath device has been employed for
thousands of years and comes from Mother India. By itself circular
breathing, if done high in the upper lungs, is an irresistable force
of nature. If done correctly it will deliver feelings and all sorts of
unconscious material to your doorstep wrapped up and ready to go.
Because it adds energy in abundant amounts, it will litterally push a
feeling though to complete integration. With the headhold it becomes a
double wammy. There are no feelings, emotions, physical sensations, or
thoughtforms that can stand in the wind of the upper lungs. This is a
psychspiritual fact.
And I said so--so there! Anyway with proper targeting this should work
alone. I'll tell you in a bit what may lock it down and what some
bromides might be.
The third element is the incident running part which is man's oldest
tech perhaps. This is reviewing and reviewing from start to finish and
really feeling it.
Every spiritual freak in the books of Saints suffered through watching
their events from start to finish. The early behaviorists did this.
Someone told me the Hubbardites used to do incident reviews from start
to finish. Traumatic Incident Reduction does this. But even if you had
all the elements in the world working against you, you would still
clear with incident review alone. Reviewing is a failsafe process. It
may be a bit slow done by itself--but it will tear the gunk off of
stuff. I don't know if you recall that famous video of the gendarmes
in California beating the living crap out of Rodney King. It was a
famous brutality suit that the police first won. The won this suit
because they got an NLP guy in there to brief the lawyers about what
to do to handle this case.
He told them to hit the jurors over and over with that damned video
untill they were emotionally dissensitized to it. No more damned
feelings about old Rodney getting clobbered and stomped. They ran that
baby over and over on the jurors and by God to the consternation of
the American public, the police won.
The jurors cleared their feelings about this guy's obvious beating.
Like I said incident running will always work unless there's some
unconscious counter intention at work. Like part of you may not want
to let what you're clearing go.
Here's the general stuff that can gum up the works:
Impatience--simply not sitting there through thick and thin until the
job gets done. This may be the number one log in the road.
Choosing targets that our unconscious uses for valuable functions.
It's tough to get rid of a defense mechanism because out intention
goes limp and flacid with those babies.But we can make adjustments
Pushing or grasping the process. In clearing it helps to create non
resistance by neither trying to get rid of something or trying to keep
it. This is the old Buddhist one-two. It kicks the crapola out of
resistance.
Choosing targets like compulsions where you really are better off
feeling the underlying feelings that arn't being felt somewhere in
your body. This removes the fuel from compulsions and blips them out.
Compulsions are defense mechanisms against feeling overwhemled. Folks
with traumas and non feeling approaches to life are often challenged
here. Overcomable completely, but with focused work.
Demanding instant grat fuels impatience and overexpectation.
Sometimes failing to notice subtle clearing changes. Your target may
have multiple aspects or chains of incidents that keep popping up at
the felt level and give the impression your not making headway. With
the incident runner sooner or later your first incident pops to the
surface. If you hit that baby the bamboolah blows at once. It will
feel like a mass got sucked out of your head and body. Those are the
big waves some of the posters talk about when they are suddenly thrown
into a temp nondual state.
Sometimes allergies and altered flows from severe traumas may slow
progress in the energy part. But the breathing and the incident
running will still kick the Mole's head off.
Take your time and if you continue to stick, come to the board and
give details of what might be happening. There's a lot of guys here
who are old time aviators who would be willing to give you the
straight poop like the sheriff down there who imparted some good
wisdom.
You can also email me and let me know what's going on and we can get
you up and flying. I sense that you are not far away.
Get that breathing down. Allow those feelings to be there. One step at
a time and soon you'll be sprinting with the wind at your back.
Take care, Steve
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Kundalini/Mack/Steve
Sent: 08.58 - 3/25 2001
John,
There are others on board that have studied Kundalini Yoga and they
might be better able to answer your questions about Kundalini, but
here is my experience.
After I did Avatar I continued to use the tools that I had learned. I
was driven to discreate any belief that I became aware of. I even
enlisted the assistance of another to help me become aware of what
some of my limiting beliefs were. (Very similiar to what Steve does
when someone comes on board and has an issue).
Even on the Avatar course, but especially afterward I started
experiencing things that sent me searching thru many books for
explanations to what was happening.
One of the books described the experience of Kundalini and the
awakening of that. I found I could identify with alot of what was
said.
There has been a number of years that have past since those initial
experiences. I am coming from a much more relaxed place in
experiencing unusual sensation, and happenings, but at the time I was
somewhat freaked out.
I would not say that Kundalini awakening is enlightenment. I have met
others who have claimed to have experienced their Kundalini awakening,
and they certainly didn't seem to be enlightened to me or even very
clear.
Mack,
I had to read your post twice before I got it. Hey, do megabrain guys
always have megadicks?
Steve,
I don't think I'm a prude. When I was young I once dreamed about doing
sexuality research. Later I found out that Master and Johnson was
conducting the kind of research I had dreamed about. The topic still
fascinates me. I can hang with raunchy guys, but I also have the
preference to spend time with my more gentle lady friends. I think I
would enjoy both Lyle and Elizabeth's company.
I was somewhat surprised by your response to Debbie, but perhaps this
fits. One of the reasons I know another's limiting beliefs (or
trances) is that I have become aware of my own. Often times when
someone comes on board, before you respond I will see what I would
have said and compare it to your response.
In the case of Debbie, perhaps it's hard for you to intuit where she
is coming from because you have no basis in your consciousness to draw
from. If Debbie is for real, please feel free to e-mail me, I might be
able to be a little bit more sensitive to your trances than Steve.
I will admit to having modesty and privacy issues steming from
childhold incidences, so I can identify very easily with those.
As a matter of fact, some of you do conscious dreaming, I find I run
thought scenario's. I'm not sure there is much difference. Anyways,
running thought scenario's on doing a wilderness retreat with a bunch
of guys I have never been face to face with, but know only thru words,
brought up alot of interesting stuff. Like would we have men and women
facilities on our retreat? Or would one bush be it?
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Sri Rama
Topic: MOKSHA
Sent: 08.12 - 3/25 2001
The pessimists have made moksha synonymous with annihilation or
dissolution, but its true meaning is freedom. He who is free from
bondage, is free, is mukta. But the last bondage is the passion for
liberation itself which must be renounced before the soul can be
perfectly free and the last knowledge is the realization that there is
none bound, none desirous of freedom, but the soul is for ever and
perfectly free, that bondage is an illusion and the liberation from
bondage is an illusion. Not only are we bound but in play, the mimic
knots are of such a nature that we ourselves can at our pleasure undo
them. Nevertheless the bonds are many and intricate. The most
difficult of all their knots is egoism, the delusion that we have an
individual existence sufficient in itself, separate from the universal
and only being, ekamevadwitiyam, who is one, not only beyond Time,
Space and Causality. Not only are we all Brahman in our nature and
being, waves of one sea, but we are each of us Brahman in His
entirety, for that which differentiates and limits us, nama and rupa,
exists only in play and for the sake of the world-drama. Whence then
comes this delusion of egoism, if there is no separate existence and
only Brahman is? We answer that there is separate existence but only
in manifestation not in reality. It is as ifone actor could play
different parts not in succession but at one and the same moment; each
part is He Himself, one and indivisible, but each part is different
from the other, Brahman extends Himself in Time, Space and Causality
which do not condition Him but exist in Him and can at any time be
changed or abolished, and in Time, Space and Causality He attaches
Himself to many namarupas which are merely existences in His universal
being. They are real in manifestation, unreal outside
manifestation.--Sri Aurobindo
Name: Uriah Heep
Topic: Get tough!
Sent: 08.03 - 3/25 2001
Dear I want to believe,
Tell the voice, "There's a new sheriff in town. If I want your
advice, I'll ask for it. One more word out of you and you become the
next target for clearing!"
Name: I WANT TO BELIEVE
Topic: Clearing
Sent: 07.57 - 3/25 2001
I've been trying this stuff but not much seems to be happening. I am
wondering if I am just incompetent or if I just can't focus on what I
am doing well enough. I often feel like I am fumbling around with
handholds and then I try to focus on an emotion and there is a voice
telling me that this will never work and I rush through it. Any
thoughts?
Name: John Kricfalusi
Topic: Kundalini, Enlightenment, and Tech
Sent: 07.28 - 3/25 2001
I know that some people feel that awakening ones Kundalini is
enlightenment. I am not sure if this is really the defenition of
enlightenment but I wonder if anyone out there has awakened Kundalini
and if they found these techniques in any way beneficial for causing
that to happen. I am also wondering how awakened kundalini might
affect these techniques. Does it become easier to clear when ones
Kundalini is awakened?
Name: Anon
Topic: I want to talk about it
Sent: 05.56 - 3/25 2001
Sexual dysfuntion amongst women is at epidemic proportions according
to a recent Oprah Winfrey show. That is why she did the show. I
suspect the bunch here is not into watching Oprah so let me pass on
some of what I learned.
Number one, male therapist usually only approach female sexual
problems from the place that it's all in their heads (psychological).
Oprah had a team of doctors on her show. Sisters, one is a
psychologist, the other a medical doctor. They approach the subject
from both the physical and psychological aspects.
Two, The same degree of research and care has not been given to women
as far as sexual problems are concerned. Again stemming from the
notion, "it's all in our heads". The medical doctor gave an
example of how as in intern she was assisting in an operation on a
male. She was reprimanded when she didn't exercise a degree of care
(by the male doc's) when operating around a certain group of nerves
that affect a man's ability to enjoy sex. Now not only have these
group of nerves not been identify in women, the same degree of care is
not ordinary taken when women have some kind of surgery concerning
their reproduction organs.
I don't recall the exact name of the book this sister team has
published, but it is on the shelfs of most major book stores.
Now, a whole new topic.....HOW DOING TECH HAS AFFECTED MY EXPERIENCE
OF SEX.
My husband and I have always enjoyed good sex. In the beginning of our
marriage it was usually quick, with my husband going on to satisfy my
needs.
After doing Avatar, things changed big time for me. As a matter of
fact if Harry is reading this, I don't know why he doesn't use that to
promote Avatar. Do Avatar and have great sex.
I know that the change occurred because I had changed my beliefs about
sex, but also about my husband loving me. Now I don't know whether
this happened because of, or the other way around, but I also noticed
an opening of the lower chakras, an awakening of the kundalini energy.
Anyways, my husband was quite pleased.
Now that I have continue to explore by using the basis of Steve's tech
(I confess, I usually just use sensate focusing, or what I call
blowing by inspection). But by becoming aware of my feelings, being
able to intensify them, and just be with them until the boink out and
an ungrasping occurs, this has transfered over to my love making.
What I am finding is that my arousal is quicker, more intense and
boinking out most pleasurable. The problem I am having is that my old
man has really slowed down in his old age. Where once he was waiting
on me, I am now waiting on him.
Now I have discussed this with him, I guess he was operating under the
assumption that it should take all night long and now that we have
cleared that up we are more compatible in our timing.
I'm just curious has anyone else noticed the transference of this tech
into their expression of their sexuality?
Anon
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: John Kricfalusi: Enlightenment
Sent: 21.05 - 3/24 2001
John: There's all sorts of brands of enlightenment and measures for
them.
Do you have a particular idea in mind that you believe might be a good
model of enlightenment?
A lot of fellows here have worked with tech and meditation for many
years. They'll tell you there's different ways to skin the cat.
Generally enlightenment is a path and not a goal in the traditional
sense. Your always a thought away.
There's a lot of paths into toward these many varieties of
enlightenment. Here the accent is more on emotional and compassionate
enlightenment.
There's a lot of techs that can bring you a rapid experience of
blowing out the lights so to speak. Satori and essence experience are
extremely common with the major techs here like Emoclear, Avatar, Core
Trans, and Sedona. The path here and the engines here are diverse.
There's the slower sitting paths like mindfulness, Zen, Mahamudra. Zen
koan work can be a pretty fast and intense road into Satori. Steve's
word/phrase approach up on the tech board gives some pretty powerful
experiences, but let me warn you that's hard and grueling work. Tech
can take you there.
Satori/essence experiences show up regularly for those persons who
have mastered several of the Emoclear tech which are in the feelings
only mode. The Meridian Grasp with upperlung breathing in the feelings
mode. The C.I.T. the Die. I feel these are the best for cracking open
feelings, thoughtforms, and bodily sensations. There's an infinity
drill and the Grok Drills that can provide some very intense
experiences. The Space Synchrony Drill is highly unusual and will blip
out into nondual experience when you master the process. All of the
previously mentioned feeling-oriented processes will really provide
strong experiences when you crack open a highly resisted target. This
comes with experience.
People also clear in conscious dreams around here and clearing much
here will abruptly throw someone into a nondual state when they've hit
a row of similars.
Avatar can also pop open targets into essence. They have a source list
which I really can't speak about and I understand some insteresting
things happen there.
Just being with feelings and doing clearing will move you closer to
going emotionally clear which leads to spontanous states of
consciousness. After a time of clearing you pass a your mass is gone
and you clear and release spontantiously. When you get to this point
states of consciousness come more under your intention. Steve listed
some characteristic of going clear which Yogi regarded as being
enlightenment. I'd go along with Yogi that Steve's list smelled of
enlightenment. It's work, but I believe some higher speed highways are
there. It's nothing really to be sought--it's more to be done. It
happens on its own accord if you're on the right road John.
Seated meditation or active feeling can really help over on the
emotional side. It teaches frustration tolerance and inner relaxed
control. These can be overlooked. They are part of the overall
process.
Lyle Talbot
Name: Mack
Topic: Obi, did you get my e-mail?
Sent: 20.59 - 3/24 2001
I've had reliability problems sending, and wondered if you got last
week's e-mail after daku and I talked on the phone. If you got it but
want to ignore me that's ok; I tuck mine in the top of my sock.
Name: Mack
Topic: Prude Heaven indeed!
Sent: 20.42 - 3/24 2001
Steve, you have remarkable insight into people and you're right, I'm
no prude. At least I don't think so. What the hell, you tell me:
In the seventies I started a nude dancing nightclub and soon had four
of them. Sixty + of the most heart-stopping young ladies you ever met
worked for me, and I was a tender lad of 24. Mean and fearless, but
still basically tender. I didn't pimp for the girls but some of them
did hook freelance on the side, and I just let them do their own thing
as long as I didn't have any hassles from it. It was a tough
racket...I had various mobsters and wannabe thugs constantly trying to
shake me down, so I had a bodyguard and I carried a piece all the
time. Several, in fact. Once in awhile things got pretty hot and shots
would get fires but nobody ever got killed, not to my knowledge
anyway.
On a personal level I didn't have a clue about sex except that I knew
that like money, I wanted all I could get. My business choice provided
me with both. My first marriage didn't make it beyond the seventh year
though, and everyone, including us, was surprised we made it that
long. We were both 19 when we got hitched and I had only been with two
women before that, as I recall.
I'm grateful for the seventies when casual sex wouldn't kill you. The
worst thing I ever caught was crabs, although others I knew weren't
quite so lucky. But nobody died...it was one big party. Plato's
retreat in New York city was the big thing then.
I smile as I look back and remember how as a young couple my first
wife and I were often approached by what were called
"wife-swappers" back then. Intersting idea with problematic
execution, but again, an experience I'm glad I had.
In contrast, my two grown kids are like Jehovah's Witnesses when it
comes to sex. I don't complain because they are that way about dope
too. Thank God.
Me, I tried literally everything except glue, at least once. It wasn't
for spiritual intropection either: it was just to blast my mind into
outer space, which always seemed like a really good idea at the time.
God knows why.
Wait, I do recall reading a single pragraph of Ram Dass' "Be Here
Now" for roughly 12 straight hours when I was ripped on acid
once, repeatedly hallucinating the type crawling off the page as I
listened to Grace Slick sing "White Rabbit", over and over.
That's about as close to anything spiritual my own drug experiences
took me. I envy Steve.
Nope, I don't think I qualify as a prude, even though I have slowed
down a lot and long since given up booze, dope, and hookers. I'm lucky
enough to be married for 18 years now to a total babe who still turns
me into the human tripod every time I look at her...no Viagra needed
for me, at least not yet.
So I guess my story is a non-prude one, but I would like to hear from
someone who hasn't been quite so profligate over the years. What the
hell is mthat like, anyway? Is there really such a thing as
celibacy???
All the best,
Mack
Name: John Kricfalusi
Topic: What is enlightenment?
Sent: 20.24 - 3/24 2001
And can these techniques get me there? What would be your strategy
using these techniques to get there?
Name: Fearless Fosdick
Topic: Basic Human Rights
Sent: 20.22 - 3/24 2001
An esteemed colleague informed me that, next to sex, religion/beliefs
was the second most popular subject on the internet. If you persist in
these prurient posts, expect to see a NAP Forum pilot show on Fox TV
for the summer season.
I'll avoid discussion of the relative preference of sex versus oxygen
(for the moment). But I do have an observation. Many of the visitors
to this page discuss relationship issues: work environment, boyfriend
problems, and campus workloads, come to mind. But the issues of the
regular posters seem to run to solitary pursuits.
I submit that sex is an inalienable right comparable to the Second
Amendment, and entitled to the same protections: I intend to hang on
to mine till they pry it from my cold, dead hand.
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Prudes
Sent: 20.00 - 3/24 2001
Hey Censor:
You know when I think about it I sort of doubt that a lot here are
prudes. I've emailed with a bunch and talked to some on the phone. My
intuition tells me theres a bunch here that are pretty earthy. I'd say
Lyle and Obi arn't. They seem like pretty earthy guys. Lyle's
downright raunchy in real life. Teko and William could be pimps for
all I know. Just teasing. Billy DeWolf uses somewhat salty language in
her emails.
I'd bet Beyond One isn't a prude. I don't believe Mack is either.
Cyndy I doubt it. Falcon--not a prude. The Purnam brothers arn't
prudes. Roy certainly isn't. He's a damn bounty hunter--no way. Yogi,
Eldon, Daku, NAP, Mirika, Jenna, John I don't have a good enough bede
on. I don't think any of them are uptight--maybe civilized. I'd put
Lyle, Obi, and Roy and probably Mack at the top of the non prude list.
Beyond One likely in with that crew. Debbie I'd put on the bottom.
That doesn't sound right does it? The bottom of the heap. No that
doesn't sound right either.
If Debbie showed up for therapy I'd be unmerciful I'm afraid. I'd say
hey Deb--it doesn't work that way. If you want me as your therapist
you're going to have to toe the mark and quick. I don't make contracts
with folks who have that kind of frustration intolerance. You're not
leaving here until you can talk outloud about those subjects or you
can go now. I will not play with that simple ass stuff. No poor dears
aloud.
Debbie if you're out there tonight consider me an insensitive thug. I
cracked up laughing whan I read that little Debbie thing. Somewhere
out there in the twilight zone of life those people exist, but they
better not come across my bow. Now that's unnacceptable. She would get
shock treatment of the worst kind!
Take care, Steve
Name: Cyndy
Topic: SEX
Sent: 19.23 - 3/24 2001
Stevie Dearest,
I did so...but you all turned beet red. Figured it wasn't something
you all were open to talk about.
Gotta go...hubby's waiting.
Cyndy
Name: Censor
Topic: Verboten
Sent: 19.16 - 3/24 2001
The word "sex" is not allowed here, out of respect to all
the Buddhist monks in training who read and post. Celibacy is tough
enough without having to read terms like "penis" and
"vagina" and "orgasm", so please be considerate
and avoid such unspiritual language.
Thenk Yew.
Censor
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: M&J, Secret Sharer,True
Sent: 19.14 - 3/24 2001
M&J: That was me. My apologies to Deb if she was for real, but she
would need shock treatment. It's true I don't recall anyone mentioning
sex. Relationships I think, but not sex. The computer metaphor was
funny.
True: Your marriage counselor friend's experience of having about 90%
of his cases being sexual disputes seems pretty reflective. I see
couples and they often report sex as one of their largest bones of
contention. Time spent together and how to spend money are the others.
Sex is where a lot of conflict shows up.
Usually one wants more than the other. Or it just isn't happening
because one or both of the partners has pulled away. People often show
their irritation and anger by stepping back from love making. When the
love making halts, thats when couples will show up. This signals to
one or both that the realtionship requires big time help. If the
fellow pulls away the woman generally interprets it that the guy
doesn't love her or doesn't find her physically attractive. If the
woman pulls back, the guy can get pretty ticked about the whole deal.
Problems in other areas of the relationship will find their way into
the bedroom. If couples are going back and forth over finances or are
battling over time spent together one of pair can demonstrate their
frustration by withdrawing. It's a bit after this when they show up
for counseling. Sometimes people will stop sharing the same bed and
let this fester for months before one decides they want to show up for
counseling. By this point a lot of hurt and resentment has occurred.
Folks collect this.
People also complain about the quality of sex, the duration, how its
done. The act of making love is often a metaphor for the whole
relationship. It's like dancing will tell you a lot how couples hang
together. Ridgity shows up in bed. Folks who are high stimulous
seekers will naturally want more variety and spice. This creates
hassles and frustrations galore when they're paired up with somone
who's a died in the wool missionary. It's really great when a couple
is simpatico about all three areas True mentioned. Most times couples
don't match up here, but they can make adjustments.
Love making is a hell of a lot of fun. Does anyone here consider
themselves a prude?
It is odd that I don't recall anyone mentioning anything about sex or
love making before. Anyone have any thoughts about that?
Take care, Steve
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Sex
Sent: 18.50 - 3/24 2001
Secret Sharer,
You all haven't been on board the whole time have you?
Cyndy
Name: Master & Johnson
Topic: Speaking of Sex...
Sent: 18.26 - 3/24 2001
WHAT SEX IS YOUR COMPUTER ?
A language instructor was explaining to her class that in French,
nouns are grammatically designated as masculine or feminine. One
student asked the
sex of a computer. As the word wasn't in her French dictionary, for
fun she split the class into two groups by gender and asked them to
decide whether
"computer" should be a masculine or feminine noun.
The men decide that computers should definitely be of the feminine
gender("la computer") because:
1. No one but their creator understands their internal
logic.
2.The native language they use to communicate with other computers is
incomprehensible to everyone else.
3. Even the smallest mistakes are stored in long-term
memory for possible later retrieval.
4. As soon as you make a commitment to one, you find
yourself spending half your pay on accessories for it.
The women, however, concluded that computers should be masculine
("le computer)Because:
1. Before they can do any work you first have to turn them on.
2. They have a lot of data, but they are still clueless.
3. They are supposed to help you solve problems, but half the time
they are the problem.
4. As soon as you commit to one, you realise that if you'd waited a
little, you could have got a better model.
Secret Sharer, this is prude heaven, in case you haven't noticed.
Plus,I'd double check before assuming that really was Steve!
Name: Distant feelings
Topic: Secret Sharer
Sent: 18.16 - 3/24 2001
Why are people here so reticent about mentioning that 3 letter word?
Shhh. Sex.
Name: Secret Sharer
Topic: SEX!
Sent: 18.14 - 3/24 2001
I don't believe anyone has ever mentioned sex on this page in 11
months. Debbie broke the ice. No one has posted with their real name
yet except Steve.
Don't you find that odd? People were making jokes about it. Does it
make any of you nervous.
SEX!!!!
Arn't we past the sixties? I thought we'd be way over the hump by now
(sorry). Sex is how we got here. Sex is pure feeling. Sex is love. Sex
is 11.99 at the video store?
KInky sex? Anyone into that?
Are some of us prudes still or what?
Anything bother you about sex? Anyone ever clear a sexual issue. We'll
keep it annonymous...if that feels safe. Are we hung up about it
because of conflicts? Does anyone not like it. Lyle get your hands off
her! Seriously any thoughts?
Topic: True
Sent: 17.34 - 3/24 2001
My friend is a marriage counsellor. He told me that 90% of his cases
involve sexual disputes. You don't do it right. You don't do it
enough. You don't do it long enough.
Name: Leroy Frizell
Topic: Hangups
Sent: 16.57 - 3/24 2001
My parents doing a bodyhandle on their wedding night.
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Debbie Dearest
Sent: 14.44 - 3/24 2001
Debbie:
There are two solid options available to you.
I. Shock Therapy. Purchase a cucumber or a knockwurst.
Scotchtape them to the largest Ken doll you can find. Dream the
impossible dream.
II.Join a nudist coloney. Or start one on your ward.
Love, Steve
Name: Debbie
Topic: Modesty
Sent: 14.29 - 3/24 2001
May I ask a question now? My friend emailed me this site and says I
can get some advice. I am painfully modest when it comes to my body.
My husband has only seen me completely naked once in my life and
probably will not again. When we make love, it is with the lights off
and no fooling around. I am a little shy with people, but it is really
the modesty about my body that bothers me. I have trouble breathing if
anyone even brings up the subject of sexual organs. I can talk about
sex as long as no one makes any specific references to male or female
parts. Can anyone recommend an easy technique to help me cope with my
modesty?
Name: Impressed
Topic: Where did all that go?
Sent: 14.08 - 3/24 2001
The last poster must've used quite a discreation tech. Everything blew
out. I'm impressed. Ot8 that was quite a show. Maybe we could turn
those same powers lose on politcs in general.
Poof
Impressed
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Cyndy, Cofidentiality
Sent: 11.50 - 3/24 2001
Cyndy:
Social Workers, Counselors, Psychologists, and Psychiatrists all have
very strict confidentiality requirements. A practitioner who violates
the tenets of confidentiality can loose their licence to practice or
their certification credentials.
Confidentiality is held as extremely important in the world of
psychotherapy. Many people would simply not go to a therapist if they
thought that person was sharing confidentialities. Trust is extremely
important.
Personally I would urge the client to forgive the therapist, but
report him/her and move on. Discussing someone's secret areas not only
breaks an important trust and has ethical consequences, it would warn
us that professional lacked self-control. How effective could a
therapist be if he lacked ethics and self-control. I personally
believe anyone who works with people in this capacity and who abridges
confidentiality should be banned from the profession. People who have
abridged trust like that should not be trusted to work with people
again. These persons should know better--if they don't let them suffer
the consequences. Confidentiality is drilled into all during your
apprentiship and training.
Now there are times when confidentiality should be abridged. Those
times would be when the person is a danger to themselves or others. Or
there is child abuse suspected.
There are certain base line behaviors for people who work with others.
That line should never be crossed.
Lyle Talbot
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Issue of Trust
Sent: 11.02 - 3/24 2001
My question concerns one of trust as I see it. Not honesty.
Is confidentiality a code of therapy?
If the therapist breaks that code is it wise for the client to
continue with that therapist? Is it out of self-esteem and personal
integrity that the person moves on? Or is this a valuable lesson the
therapist has provided for their client. The client acknowledges it
and forgives?
Again, I am reminded of previous discussion on trangressions and
forgiveness that we have had here.
This seems to be a real life example. Do I forgive? And even if I
forgive, is there an element of trust that will never be
reestablished?
Cyndy
PS...it's all make believe.
Name: Truth Serum
Topic: Cyndy--We're returning it
Sent: 09.25 - 3/24 2001
Cyndy---Nothing was said...we're returning it in a plain brown
envelope...a part of us never wanted to be a part of this horrible and
disreputable act.
TS
Name: Russ Tamblyn
Topic: Cyndy: Uh Oh...Did you break the....
Sent: 09.18 - 3/24 2001
No Cindy girl no......Pssssss.....Did you do it.......Did you break
the code of silence.....do they know you broke THE
confidentiality?....not you Cyndy?...a thousand times no...You didn't
tell anyone one of the ******* Secrets did you?.....Did you take it
upon yourself to release information into the human
thoughtstream...information that could conceivably hurt thousands of
********.....allover the globe....In one incredible network
of*********.........Cyndy you shouldn't have done
that.....No...No...No.....In just one hour of horrific shame.....You
Cindy girl....Have jeopardized a whole network or hardworking and
erstwhile **********.....This is unpardnable....Will it be the Walk of
Atonement.....or no...No....No...not the EJP.....Cyndy we have lost
all respect for you...give us back your epulets....The ballgame is
over....Confidentiality has been bridged......trusts have been
broken.....secrets have fallen into the hands of the
philistines....Pray tell was it ****** or *********.....If it was the
former than welcome to the world of *********......Secrets beg to be
told.....Forgive youself....as we forgive you Cyndy girl....And keep
thy trap shuteth....so no more pearls shall be cast among
swine.....Russ.
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Confidentiality
Sent: 06.45 - 3/24 2001
For me to be certified as a public accountant I had to take an ethics
test. One of the core ethics in my profession is that of
confidentiality. Often, I have a better idea of a person financial
situation, then they themselves do, and it's understood that I
wouldn't share this information with others. Of course I don't have
the same rights as some, courts can ask me to provide information.
I was wondering since some of you are therapist or have been auditors
in SCN is there an understanding of confidentiality between the
therapist and client?
What happens if that confidentiality is violated? If the client finds
out you have shared information with another, that violates an agreed
upon ethical code? Can you ever work effectively with that client?
Cyndy
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Cleared or am I having more fun.
Sent: 06.33 - 3/24 2001
Brandy,
It has been probably in the last couple of months that I have given up
on understanding what "enlightenment" is. Or what being
"clear" is, or if I am or not.
A wise person once shared with me that the whole purpose of
"processing" was to rehabilitate the individual so that they
can play the game better.
That is what I use. Am I playing the game better? Am I having more
fun? When I hit the pillow at night do I have a smile on my face and a
sense of fulfillment?
Recently I got together with a few of my friends from High School. It
was an interesting experience for me. To experience them, to hear them
express how their lives are, to experience their attitude. On the
outside we may appear the same, on the inside there seems to be a big
difference.
Cyndy
Name: Dan Castelli
Topic: Emoclear: C.I.R.
Sent: 04.35 - 3/24 2001
Dear People, This page is totally mind-blowing. I can't believe you're
giving these tecniques away. Just to see what was up, I tried out the
C.I.R. and followed the directions. It really is amazing to me how it
can change how you think and feel about something. I used it before a
Public speaking class which normally make me nervous as hell. I would
always get at the very least sweaty palms and a dried mouth. I would
be so self-conscious. I used the C.I.R. and ran it through memories of
my public speaking classes and similar events. It changed how I
imagined it and felt so very quickly. I worked with the C.I.R. for 30
minutes the night before I was to give a presentation to our class.
I could feel it bringing down the level of tension rapidly. I felt a
weird tingle in my palm and in my fingers beneath my nose. When I was
viewing the event I felt a faint jolt and the imagery felt altogether
different for me. I started getting a lot of dreamy images. I started
recalling times when I felt humiliated preiously. When I did my
presenation for real, I felt relaxed and with it. I had zero nerves.
I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciated this website
being up. I never heard of Emoclear previously. I read about this page
on Self-Help Magazine when I was looking for tips on public speaking
type things.
Thanks, Dan Castelli
Name: Gompo
Topic: Our other friend
Sent: 23.01 - 3/23 2001
Envy creates its own toxin.
Love attracts love.
Gompo
Name: Anon
Topic: Brandi: at least 6 on this board
Sent: 21.56 - 3/23 2001
Brandi, At least six or seven on this board have clear screens, maybe
a few more. No one would be egotistical enough to announce clearing
their screens. The regulars have a sense of who's doing what. Seeing
without distorted perceptual filters is one of the first things to go.
One of the easiest. A lot of the techs here can clear a lot of crap
real fast. Once someone learns to clear in dreamstates a lot of stuff
gets blown out. There's crew here who've been kicking it for 30 years
or more. Hang around and you'll pick up on it. There's circles within
circles here.
Anon
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: Dear Brandy,
Sent: 21.36 - 3/23 2001
Not I. I think I've been real close to clearing out my own stuff:
maybe I even did. But then there's the whole rest of the world to
handle. If we could get that knocked off, I think I could be
"irreversibly clear."
But everytime I have all attention off my own stuff, when it's all
gone as best I can tell, I take another dive off the high board.
Cyndy talks about "belief traps". I never met one I didn't
want to test drive.
Name: Brandy Alexander
Topic: Clear
Sent: 21.11 - 3/23 2001
So who here would say that they have cleared all the crap away. That
they are able to see everything without the negative perceptual
filters. And how does one know?
Name: Hank Wohl
Topic: Steve & Yogi: Clear/Enligtenment
Sent: 20.54 - 3/23 2001
Steve, Yogi, Good to travel back here and read those Stormpage
archives and the latest posts. Much has gone on since I was last here.
Very useful markings for what clear or some forms of enlightenment
are. Steve's description sounds like a lot of work, but I think doable
with effort. Since I have been clearing I feel like I've moved forward
some grades. I can tell you the world and myself make more sense and
seem clearer. The best way I could put it is that a large mass has
been removed from my window.
I feel happier and more grounded. I look more disspassionately at my
feelings and thoughts. It feels like I have more freedom and options
open to me.
There's still much I require working upon that for sure. I know I have
made some wide gains over the last several months from using the NAP
page tech.
I think too many Grok Drills (My favorites along with the MG) has
allowed me to clear more spontaneously. I feel things popping on their
own now. Maybe I am just more aware of this. I am experiencing more
peak type experiences in my life. I attribute this to a steady diet of
clearing. I go about this systematically. Almost daily. It's on my
Daytimer. I look forward to this work.
Great to drop back in and see a lot of the old faces.
Steve, Yogi, Lyle, Obi,NAP, Teko, William, Cyndy, Al.
Thank you NAP for allowing this to take place!!!!!!
Hank Wohl
Name: Yogi
Topic: Clear
Sent: 20.17 - 3/23 2001
As a charter member of F.O.G. (Funny Old Geezers) I can't pass up the
opportunity to express muddied up opinions about clarity.
Actually, Steve's description of "clear" is pretty close to
what I would call "enlightenment". I call enlightenment
irreversible when a person is clear to the point where they are
effortlessly free of falling back into non-clarity.
Non-clarity of course, would be the opposite of clarity, where a
persaon is overidentified with limited viewpoints and therefore unable
to experience many states of consciousness, and believes they are at
the effect of their beliefs, not the cause of them.
The instance in time where they became clear with no possibility of
returning to non-clarity would be the enlightenment experience. It
could happen suddenly(as in the Zen stories), or gradually, through
years of clearing practice and/or meditation.
A satori experience would be a temporary altered state in which a high
degree of connectedness with all life and clarity was experienced,
followed by a return to the person's usual consciousness.
Many satoris might be experienced along the road to clarity. The
result of experiencing many different states of consciousness would be
an expanded view of life, and possibly a result of such broad
understanding would be compassion for all life.
A clear person would still be an ordinary human being, who makes
mistakes and learns from them, just like everyone else. A common
mistake is for a mass of people to project their idea clarity or
enlightenment onto an individual and then set that individual up on a
pedestal, assuming that the person is infallible and godlike.
Just because a person is clear does not necessarily mean he would
always make the best choices, nor does it imply that he would know how
to control all the people who were projecting godhood onto him.
Just some thoughts on this.
-Y
Name: Yogi
Topic: Bipolar and loving it to death!
Sent: 19.54 - 3/23 2001
And I mean to death!
Actually, just kidding. My experience with a bipolar person echoed
many of the tendencies Mack and Kelly discussed. This person did not
use mind or mood altering drugs, but the cycles of intensity and lack
of a sense of boundaries was there. Also a sense of being personally
affected by everything. For example, I could not ride the bus with
this person as they would get freaked out due to a lack of boundries
between themselves and others. The old saying "I couldn't take
you anywhere" was literally true and we agreed not to after
several embarassing incidents in restaurants where we had tried to
enjoy a dinner out.
How they stood on feeling I am not sure. I think they felt everything
and then reacted without the usual control most of us have. I actually
got the person to quiet the mind and do some feeling oriented
processes, which they did easily. So I don't think with this person
there was a lack of feeling, but rather a lack of coherency in the
responding behaviors. They were locked up by judgments in many cases,
and tended to cycle through streams of repetitive thoughts.Their past
was very alive for them and the characters in their pasts seemed vivd
and real to them. The only times I saw them unable to feel was when
clinical drugs had deadened them. They also experienced severe tardive
dyskinesia due to antipsychotics. Off the drugs they were much more
alive and feeling, but also much more reactive and out-of-control.
Severe bi-polar and advanced paranoid schizophrenia are some of the
toughest cases. Even getting them to the point where they understand
they have an illness is too much for many of them.
-Yogi
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Pam: Eating when I'm not hungry
Sent: 19.48 - 3/23 2001
Hi Pam:
Welcome to the NAP board.
You mention eating when you're not hungry. This eating comes on the
heals of being stressed out.
It comes from a "desire".
Before I could really comment here about this eating challenge I'd
have to know a few more details.
Have you gone to a physician about this problem? Have they provided
you with any feedback?
Have you had any challenges with blood sugar or food allergies? Would
being svelter make any changes in your life?
A desire to eat doesn't sound particularly strong.
It doesn't sound compulsive unless you think a stronger word might be
more fitting to describe this urge.
If I had more complete details we might take one of several approaches
with this common difficulty. We could go to feeling feelings to
overcome mild compulsivity, taking action contrary to the feeling and
changing the feeling, utilizing a multi-solutions generator to
discover how you naturally handle this, using a pattern interrupter.
There's much that could be done here if we had a few more details. Or
it may be a physical challenge that might require the guidance of a
physician.
Take care, Steve
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Brandy Alexander
Sent: 18.39 - 3/23 2001
Brandy Alexander:
I can't speak about what the meaning of clearing was to L. Ron Hubbard
because I've seen just a few of his statements on it. I've never done
Scientology, only some of the related tech I've found on www.FZA.org.
A spinoff of early auditing is Traumatic Incident Reduction which I
appreciate very much.
I've seen some pretty good statements about clearing over on Hank
Levin's Free Spirit Journal site. There appears to be a multitude of
definitions of what clearing is and is not. To be "clear"
has many meanings.
My particular version of being "clear" would be somewhat
broad in scope. Among the most important qualities of being clear
would be these: (1) Your perceptual screen is no longer distorted by
hard traumas, soft traumas, holes, empty spots, self-defeating
identities, personality clusters, distorted beliefs. (There is a short
list of these challenges up in "Targets for Tech") (2) Your
feelings are clear and neither repulsive or attractive. (3) You are
free to either keep, add, or let go of beliefs.
(4) You accept whatever is before you whether it's a feeling,
thoughtform, emotion, physical sensation. (5) Your intention is clear
and under control. (6) You empathize and have compassion toward
others. (7) Your actions and words match up. (8)Various states of
consciousness are open to you. (9) You can let go and clear
spontaneously.(10) You feel your feelings, intuition, and sensations.
(11) You feel a sense of connection to all life.(12) Kryptonite is no
longer an impediment.
There's plenty on that plate, but it allows life to become more fun
and meaningful. I hope this provides some idea.
Take care, Steve
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: Deyah Woid mustard
Sent: 17.55 - 3/23 2001
My face hurts. That's very funny.
Name: Jeremy
Topic: Core transformation
Sent: 17.41 - 3/23 2001
Thank you Steve for answering my question about the core
transformation tech. I just fineshed reading about your early days out
in New Mexico. You really have found your calling in teaching
enlightenment tech.I love the core transformation tech but one of my
all time favorites is one of yours the D.I.E. it's simply incredible .
We are lucky to have someone as knowlegable as you on this board. Your
compasion for others is noticed by me also.
Thanks again
Jeremy
Name: macespace
Topic: joke
Sent: 16.14 - 3/23 2001
Sorry Brandy, but it IS a cute joke if it is told with the correct
phrasing:
"I'd prefer to have a bottle in front of me rather than a frontal
lobotomy."
But the thought is still the same...... it's time for the NAP Weekend
Madness!!!!!
macespace
Name: Poster
Topic: Driving
Sent: 14.41 - 3/23 2001
Want to access your subconscious? Try driving. Ever notice that
sometimes you get to your destinatin without realizing how you got
there? Or that you can get there yourself, but you just can't give
others directions to get there? Maybe we should try clearing in the
car. On second thought.......
Name: Brandy Alexander
Topic: Clearing (I'd rather have a drink in front of me than a
frontal lobotomy.
Sent: 13.32 - 3/23 2001
So when we talk about clearing conceivably isn't this something we can
do and reach a point where there is nothing left to clear? Are we then
"Clear" as the scientologists talk about or do we still have
more work to do to be absolutely sane. Or maybe this is not the
purpose? Why do we clear? What do we hope to get from it? These are my
questions.
Name: Pam
Topic: overweight
Sent: 13.04 - 3/23 2001
I've been reading for a while and you seem like a pretty smart group.
So I wanted to ask for some advice on a recurring problem of mine --
eating when I'm not hungry.
I am a happy person, with a very satisfying life. Yet I feel this urge
to eat even when I know I shouldn't be hungry. I'm not huge but my
body mass index is 25 -- overweight.
This happens most when I am stressed out. It's not in my stomach. It's
just a desire to eat. I'll find myself looking in the refrigerator for
something. Or I'll even bake something and eat it.
Do you have any suggestions for what I could do to reduce this desire
to eat?
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Steve snuck in
Sent: 11.59 - 3/23 2001
Al,
Just to let you know, I hadn't read Steve's post before I posted mine.
Cyndy
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Trusting Feelings
Sent: 11.55 - 3/23 2001
Al,
To answer your question, "Do I trust my feelings?" The
answer is yes.
And maybe it's not trusting my feelings, but trusting my intuition.
You know....women's intuition.
What comes up, to the question "why", is it has been
beneficial to do so in the past.
I'll give you an example. A couple of years ago I was offered a
position with an accounting firm, but they also dealt in where if a
person wanted the money from their life insurance policies, they would
find people to buy your policy so that you could have the money now.
There's a name for it...it evades me now.
I worked one day at the place, told them it wasn't the job for me. I
just had a gut reaction that something wasn't right. I took some
criticizm from family and friends about not sticking with it. A year
later the owner of the firm was indicted for embezzlement.
Following my intuition works for me.
We could get into a deeper discussion about if you could change the
beliefs and what would happen, anyone want to go there?
Cyndy
Name: Mack
Topic: Killer Post
Sent: 11.51 - 3/23 2001
Steve, that's a great distinction between the deeper felt sense and
superficial feelings. Thanks.
I have been on both ends of Core Trans and mentally tried to answer
Jeremy's question myself. I glad I didn't try...you did it again Boss!
Enjoy the day.
Name: Mrs. seriano
Topic: Dear Mrs. Mack
Sent: 11.50 - 3/23 2001
Our plan seems to be working. Mr seriano has been out in the garage
all week working on his plates. My headaches are gone, I'm feeling
much happier, and I finally got to vaccuum under his computer monitor.
If you speak to Mrs. Steve, see if she can get him to post plans for a
copper gingerbread house.
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Mack: Biocircuits
Sent: 11.49 - 3/23 2001
Mack:
I should hold a book in biocircuits! Thank God the thing had no
effect.
It's quite common for people to be a little freaked when they see
those two copper squares with wires running out of them. Often folks
think some kind of electricity is involved.
Many years ago my first wife and I went to a float tank spa in
Philadelphia. We had tanks next to each other. Just before I climbed
into mine, I noticed she had the radio turned on in hers. I should've
known at that point!
Take care, Steve
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Al--gut trusting, Jeremy: Core Trans
Sent: 11.39 - 3/23 2001
Al:
You asked: Do you trust your gut? If so, why? If not, why?
Al I really trust my gut. My intuition seldom fails me. Now please
note I'm saying intuition or my felt sense, rather than my feelings.
There's a difference between intuition and just raw feelings data.
Intuition for me is that felt sense that's linked to my
unconconscious. It appears there's a treasure trove of experience and
learnings that our biocomputer can rapidly hash through. For me the
intuitions will come in abrupt images. I think most folks could safely
trust their intuition or their felt sense of things. Now some people
may gain difficulty if they are just trusting their feelings and not
their intuition or felt sense. Surface feelings tend to reflect the
beliefs that created them. This may be an endless loop situation like
the "Book of Dunkaba" proves the "Book of Dunkaba"
If the underlying beliefs are distorted they will provide distorted
information. But below the level of the surface feelings resides our
intuition or felt sense.
Jeremy:
Core Transformation likely works so well because it engages you at a
primarily intuiitive level. At this level it is quite easy to be
absorbed into an altered state. You are asked these repetitive
questions that appeal directly to your intuiitive mental processes. In
this apeal, you are also requested to stay absorbed by answering the
questions. Staying so fully absorbed with your intution is bound to
trigger altered states. There's a lot going on there in a Core State.
The absorbtion is compounded by hitting a double bind when you hit a
wall with your questions. Your mind freezes up and this is heightened
when you arrive at the complete opposite of your original target. In
short it's this steady absorbtion in intuitive processes and the
boggling of consciousness at the end point where the opposites meet.
It's always been among my favorites.
Take care, Steve
Name: Mack
Topic: Biocirucuits
Sent: 11.36 - 3/23 2001
I still haven't tried my unit while running tech. Maybe this weekend
if I have time.
I did convince my wife to try it two days ago. She didn't want to at
first and I couldn't understand why not. Turns out she thought I had
the thing plugged into the wall socket and she worried about lying on
all that exposed copper plating! After I explained, she reluctantly
agreed to try it.
She said she felt nothing at all, but I'm wondering if that's because
she insisted on reading a book while holding on to the copper handles.
As of today though, I noticed some interesting effects. For the last
couple of days for example, she has slept exceptionally well. This is
unusual because she is normally a chronic insomniac.
She has also been abnormally bright and cheerful. I asked her if her
chronic headaches (she lives on Advil) had been affected and she tells
me she hasn't had one since trying the device. She is also missing the
painful chronic neck cramps that normally take her to the chiropractor
twice a month.
I guess this could all be coincidence (my wife thinks so) but I'm not
so sure. I'd like to hear more from others using this thing,
especially in conjunction with tech.
All the best
Mack
Name: King David
Topic: character assassinations
Sent: 11.19 - 3/23 2001
I admit I had my petty moments. Still, you should have seen King Saul.
He was not a nice man. He threw things and had temper tantrums
regularly. Talk about an easy act to follow.
And I really regret having Bathsheba's husband killed so I could have
her. (She was one hot babe.) God punished me by taking the first child
we conceived but then, Solomon was our next child. And he ruled well.
I suppose I could have had a broader viewpoint.
Too bad no one will be reading my psalms anymore now that word is out
on my pettiness. I especially liked the 23rd one. Got good reviews.
Name: King Solomon
Topic: Character Assassinations
Sent: 11.15 - 3/23 2001
I had over 300 wives and 700 concubines. I still found time to write
proverbs you've probably all quoted. I made some wise decisions that
set the standard for later rulers.
I didn't have time to defend my character.
[sigh] Of course, back in those days, I could have people beheaded for
their impertinence. Monarchic respect has definitely declined though
the centuries.
I suppose this character assassination means my words will no longer
be quoted or my wisdom used as an example.
Ah well, as I've said before, there's a time to every purpose under
heaven.
Name: King Solomon
Topic: Proverbial Wisdom
Sent: 11.10 - 3/23 2001
What a man soweth, that will he also reap.
Name: Hero Worshiper
Topic: Patton
Sent: 11.08 - 3/23 2001
There seems to be an underlying assumption that to be heroic, the hero
must also be without human foibles. Patton was a great military leader
but talk about foibles! (Made for a great movie.)
So, I don't know, Obi, whether there are any heroes. Depends on
whether you believe someone who is human cannot also be great.
Personally, I have heroes. And they all make mistakes and spout off
and do stupid things sometimes. But, overall, they're great human
beings.
Name: Objectivist
Topic: Eldonitis
Sent: 10.50 - 3/23 2001
Cyndy, you said it much better. I bow to your eloquence.
Name: Objectivist
Topic: Eldonitis
Sent: 10.46 - 3/23 2001
I notice that Eldon can't post anything without being stomped
on, and it's starting to become tedious.
Eldon speaks the truth but it is true that his truth can also
produce a condition called "Eldonitis". This is
defined as an inflammatory obstruction caused by too much
stark truth for certain recipients to bear.
Eldon doesn't need apologists or defenders but I think that
the critics of his posts could profit from taking a hard look
at their own personal agendas when they reflexively get in his
face every time he posts.
Disagreement with (and objective criticism of) anyone's
remarks posted here is fine, but the covert hostility I see
expressed toward Eldon every time he opens his mouth is
becoming tiresome and downright objectionable.
The man may or may not be annoying to some people sometimes,
but he still deserves the same courtesy and respect that we're
all entitled to. Back off a little boys...your hidden agenda
is showing.
Name: Carter
Topic: Eldon: Let the drug companies alone
Sent: 10.20 - 3/23 2001
Let's review the logic of this proposition. The drug companies
pay for valuable research and extensive trials to find helpful
drugs and to get them approved for patient use. They price
these drugs so as to make a profit at about the same rate as
other corporations in America. But the drug companies are
evil. The drug companies should be forced to not make a
profit. They should have to give away their products because
people are dieing. Of course, this means the drug industry
will become unprofitable and they won't develop any more
drugs. But, we've saved a few lives in the short term.
Yes, short term.
That describes Eldon's viewpoint. Forget the work the drug
companies have done to create life saving treatments. Forget
the potential to create more life saving treatments.
Individual situations should override planetary goals.
In case I haven't made it clear yet, I disagree with this
short-sighted viewpoint.
Name: Kelly Brandt
Topic: Mack: Bipolar Manic Depression
Sent: 08.57 - 3/23 2001
Hi Mack:
I read a lot of journals and on occasion have come across
articles and abstracts on the connection between substance
abuse and undiagnosed mental illness.
Personally I have come across many persons who have come to
therapy presenting with addictions and soon proving to fit the
diagnosis of bipolar manic depression. Often these persons are
self-medicating with coke to help them through the down cycle.
I've also run into more than a few who self-medicate with
alcohol. Because of the cycling up and down in mood, the
bipolar person has an overly strong tendency toward addiction.
In taking histories I will quickly discover these persons are
addicted heavily to all sorts of items and activities in their
personal environment. Most are prone to workaholism,
overspending, loveaholism. Life is lived with much intensity
and passion on the high cycle. In therapy one of the hallmarks
I'll note with these persons is their excessive needyness and
lack of personal boundaries. The idea of preferences would
seem completely alien to them. Just about everything is a
need. Compulsions form fairly easy owing to the fact that
bipolars have difficulty processing feelings because of the
intensity. Self-medication is very high among these persons.
Coke, amphetimines, uppers for when they're low and alcohol
and sleeping pills for when they are up. The bipolar world is
a very turbulent one and I can see why addictions are so
prevelent. Many lawyers, engineers, and high rung business
types may have bipolar disorders. The short cyclers seem to
function okay. They have a tremendous capity for work and
doing things. They seem to do everything.
Kelly Brandt
Name: Eldon Braun
Topic: Mental needs
Sent: 08.45 - 3/23 2001
Yogi,
The physical needs--oxygen, food, water, etc.--are certainly
not the only ones. Certain psychological needs are also
somewhere in our boot program. Back in Psych 101, I remember
reading about a cruel yet rigorous psychological study done by
some king or czar. He had a hundred or so orphaned infants put
in a sensory deprivation situation. All their physical needs
were met, but they were shut off from human touch and other
forms of normal mental stimuli. All of them promptly expired.
This has been proven time and time again. So during that
developmental phase at least, we could say that experience is
a definitive need. Without it, neural pathways don't develop
and the organism shuts down.
For the definitive study of how minds develop and myths
develop, I recommend the works of Jean Piaget as a
prerequisite to those of Jung, Maslow and Joseph Campbell.
Adults often like to play with sensory deprivation for brief
periods, but they already have their software programs in
place to provide an alternative reality. However, even in
adulthood, a majority of time spent interacting with the real
world seems to be necessary for sanity and survival. Maximum
security prisons, for example, are not conducive to solving
pathological problems.
I think you generalize when you speak of "the myth of the
great warrior/saviour who sacrifices totally for the
well-being of the whole." Naw, lots of leaders in various
societies never sacrificed anything but goats, enemies or
virgins, usually in the goriest manner possible. The myth of
the great leader-hero perpetuated in many societies was
usually manufactured to keep the masses in line and willing to
die in battle for whatever dynasty was in power. History was
frequently rewritten. Scholars are presenting new evidence
that the reknowned King David of Biblical fame was a petty,
dictatorial little tribal warlord, and that Solomon pretty
much followed in his footsteps.
At least in the West, we get to elect a new megalomaniac every
several years. At least Bill Gates got busted. But I wouldn't
say we're anywhere near being a model for the rest of the
world. My vote would go to the doughty patent busters in India
and South Africa who insist on manufacturing cheap AIDS
medications despite howls of protest from western governments.
Maybe I'm just in a cynical mood today, but I don't think
everyone out there is discussing problems and solving them. I
think many people are manufacturing new problems for others in
order to maintain a power base or avoid loss of something they
perceive as a need. If you look around, plenty of viable
solutions have already been proposed to solve the ecological
and social problems we face in the world today. Yet they
aren't being implemented because of conflicting interests and
absolutist belief systems. Maybe maintaining those is another
basic mental need.
Best, Eldon
Name: BeyondOne
Topic: I'm a little man...
Sent: 08.13 - 3/23 2001
Cyndy, WOW! "People always do what they think (or
believe) is the right thing." Wow!
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Motivation
Sent: 08.02 - 3/23 2001
Beyond One,
Okay, here is my reduction on motivation..
People always do what they think (or believe) is the right
thing.
Cyndy
Name: Mack
Topic: Addiction
Sent: 07.53 - 3/23 2001
Kelly, do you have any insights or comments about the
connection between substance addiction and undiagnosed mental
illness, especially bipolar disorder? I recently read of
growing evidence of a link between the two and wondered what
the clinician's point of view on that might be.
All the best
Mack
Name: Bob
Topic: Beyond One: Motivation
Sent: 07.52 - 3/23 2001
Beyond One:
That's easy. I'm no fool. It's what ever God wants for us. I
mean whatever God needs for us.
Bob
Name: Kelly Brandt
Topic: Beyond One+ Motivation
Sent: 07.50 - 3/23 2001
Beyond One:
I always enjoy your brief and often cogent posts.
I think people are motivated by both of the categories you
mention. But I think that life really works better when we are
focused on going after positve things.
Now I haven't heard of other motivations than what you
mentioned so I couldn't argue here. If I got nit pickey I
might say that that our ideas of things were what motivated
us. For something to be attractive or repulsive we would have
to believe that to be so.
What are some other motivations? I hope no one says a quest
for essence or oneness. I think everyone has their own thing
that turns them on.
Kelly Brandt
Name: Kelly Brandt
Topic: Yogi & Steve: Exploring/Addiction
Sent: 07.39 - 3/23 2001
Yogi & Steve, LSD was something that I enjoyed when I did
it. I was curious as well about the experience because many of
my friends in college did it. I moved on to meditation and
became involved with a local Shambala Center and several
spiritual communities in New York. Daily meditation is a part
of life. I practice Insight Meditation a Buddhist approach
which puts a high premium on being with your feelings.
I found the recent posts on needs versus wants to be
entertaining and eyeopening. Since I work with addictive
populations this debate was of keen interest to me.
Traditionally people involved with addictions work take a very
dim view of raising the nonessential to the level of a need.
Most see the basic necessities as needs and the rest as
preferences, wants, and what not. The addictions community
will see the inclination to raise something to a need as
addiction producing. I tend to go along with this viewpoint.
People who raise shopping, gambling, substances, work, and
exercise to the level of a need are making addictions of them.
Every addicted person I've ever met has an extensive list of
socalled needs. They have more needs than anyone else because
of an inner compulsiveness, a defense against feeling.
If something becomes a need then naturally it becomes
something we feel we must have. It becomes an addiction or
compulsion. Our society is replete with examples of
addictions. Computer addictions and work addictions come
easily to mind. Needing something whether love or music making
will make it addictive.
Needing or believing in false needs is a huge part of all
addictions. This is undeniable. A fact of life to the
addiction community.
There are far better motivations than needing and compulsion.
They will create stress galore and compulsively driven pain if
one doesn't make the object of their addiction. Having strong
preferences and wants would be much better motivators because
they would make someone less stressed, more focused, more able
to call on their flow. People can not deseperately crave or
need something and hope to be much in the flow. Workaholics
are driven people and very out of contact with both the flow
and themselves.
The basis of workaholism is undeniably seeing work as a need.
If we would choose our beliefs why would we choose to make
much into addictions? That would be ever so self-defeating.
Kelly Brandt
Name: Yogi
Topic: Quick note
Sent: 06.57 - 3/23 2001
Sorry for the accidental post.
Steve, thanks for sharing your early experiences. I remember
the Vanilla Fudge. We used to trip out to Sibelius, Jimi, and
out-jazz like John Coltrane, or just go on camping trips and
experience the mountains aat night while tripping. These were
very mystical, magical experiences. I was also reading up on
Eastern philosophy, although for me Tantra and Yoga were
stronger attractions than Buddhism. I love tantra because it
embraces fully feeling and experiencing life's richness
without resistance.
But I also came from an alcoholic family, and was not happy at
home, so there was definitely an element of avoidance of those
issues going on with me at that time also.
On the needs: I was looking at different possible definitions
of what a need is. It is indeed a different way of using the
label. For me, wants, or preferences don't carry much impact,
whereas a need drives me from deep level.
Needs can certainly be beliefs. In particular I was exploring
whether the structure of human consciousness is set up in such
a way that it is driven to liberate itself in some way.
Another issue is problem-solving, an activity of the mind
which may be very closely tied to our survival.
I am also tired of the discussion for now. I am not familiar
with Maslowe's list, but it seems that many people here don't
agree with it anyway. I am definitely not antagonistic towards
anyone's viewpoint here. I like to look at possibilities of
definitions and what they imply. The Avatar crowd calls this
"multidimensionalizing" a subject, and it is a
technique for expanding a topic and looking at it from many
different angles.
Peace. Count me out of S.M.O.G. But hey, I might be a good
candidtae for F.O.G.!
-Yogi
Name: Yogi
Topic: Just a quick note:
Sent: 06.40 - 3/23 2001
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Exploring
Sent: 05.53 - 3/23 2001
I have never used any strong substances to explore
consciousness. So I really can't express a "why" for
myself.
One night though, my son, his friends and I were discussing
this topic. The agreed upon reason for them was not to escape
from something, but to explore.
I asked "Why did you use drugs?", they responded,
because it was there and they could. There seemed to be a
level of curiousity.
Cyndy
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Yogi: Explorers/settlers
Sent: 22.00 - 3/22 2001
Hey Yogi:
I experimented with psychedelics back in the sixties and I was
motivated out of a sincere interest to find out what altered
states of consciousness were. I was around 19/20 years old and
living in Denver, Colorado and writing for an underground
newspaper called the Solid Muldoon and working at a bar called
the Pink Elephant. I recall being extremely interested in the
exploits of Leary and Watts and the others who wrote about LSD
and journies inward. I had a dogeared copy of the "Joyous
Cosmology" by Alan Watts, "The Doors of
Perception" by Aldous Huxley, "Steppenwolf" by
Herman Hesse and my favorite "The Psychedelic
Experience" a guidebook to journies inward based on the
Tibetan Book of the Dead by Leary, Metzner, Alpert (aka Ram
Dass). Well I devoured those books with great curiosity and
interest. I had several friends who had done LSD in San
Francisco and had talked glowingly of their experience. What
brought me to the door, looking back, was a real interest in
knowing what this interior journey was all about. When the
opportunity knocked I was there. A friend gave me a sugar cube
darkly stained with 1200 mics of pure LSD from a Montana lab.
I remember the first trip vividly and it was even more intense
and expansive than I thought it would be. I spent the larger
part of that trip spawled out on the floor listening to some
classical music and the Vanilla Fudge an early psychedelic
rock group. The classical music sent me down a chute into my
archtypal unconscious. At times I was dying, dead,
ressurrecting, one with it all,watching the games my ego
played, being batted back and forth by my conscience, being
taken downward into subatomic structures, surging and
pulsating though a kalidescope of images and feelings of the
most intense and powerful sort. I knew heaven and hell and
just about every polarity inbetween. I surrendered to this
process like the Tibetan Book of the Dead admonished and died
and was reborn in one of the most intense and emotionally
chaotic experiences I ever had. That first excursion got me so
interested in what went on inside me that I really believe it
was a major turning point in my life. From that point on I
wanted to explore the unconscious and know what was going on
in this phantasmagoric world. The first venture inward with
psychedelics opened up questions that never occurred to me
before. I caught a glimpse of something and that something put
me on the road to studying meditation and tech. After several
excursions with LSD, Psilocybin,DMT, Olohiqui and Banisteria
Caapi I took up residence in Western New Mexico, worked as a
night drilling supervisor at an open Pit copper mine, and
studied with a Burmese Buddhist monk who lived nearby and
taught Vipassana. I did this for three and a half years. Those
three and a half years greatly altered my life. At this point
I became a full time settler. Self-exploration and growth
became a lifelong pursuit. It greatly influenced me to become
a writer, mindfulness teacher, therapist, and tech developer.
I love this work and its origins. I have very fond memories of
those early days of exploring. There was a lot of excitement
back then. There still is.
Take care, Steve
Name: Yogi
Topic: Explorers/settlers
Sent: 21.07 - 3/22 2001
Beyond One,
Interesting point about explorers often being motivated by
avoidance. I too explored with psychedelics as a youth, and
this was an outgrowth of simply wanting to get out of the
house where the family was dysfunctional.
Later I desired to be more of a settler. I have stayed in the
Seattle area far longer than any other place I have ever lived
in my life. I was desiring some roots.
But, it seems eventually that settlers can can stuck in
habits, and even avoidance. Avoidance of things like
risk-taking, and change. Locked into certain viewpoints.
I guess then its time to sell the farm and hit the trail
again, eh?
-Yogi
Name: Who is Nap?
Sent: 20.43 - 3/22 2001
Does nap ever post or does he just maintain the page. Either
way thank you, Nap!
Name: Yogi
Sent: 20.13 - 3/22 2001
Hey guys,
I am not spilling any blood here. I don't have an answer. I
was simply posing the question: if human beings continue to
drive after something life after life, generation after
generation, and it pervades their whole mythology and history,
are we looking at a need here, or a want?
Embedded in this question is the question that Beyond One
touched on - is there a need for human values?
That is to say, can something which is not necessary for
physical survival only still be a need?
It seems like every human society has the myth of the great
warrior/saviour who sacrifices totally for the well-being of
the whole.
Such a psychological construct is not necessary for the
survival of a single individual, yet it forms a central part
of the social context in every society, every village, every
religion that I know about.
Hey, Emoclear is about assisting people for the greater good,
and so is Avatar.
My question is, since this ALWAYS pops up everywhere there is
a culture or subculture of people, are we looking at something
that is a need, instead of a preference?
If we define need as only related to physical survival and
nothing more, the answer would, of course, be a resounding NO.
I am being a stick in the mud by asking, is this the best
definition of need? Can a psycholoical construct be a need?
Does the mind have needs beyond physical needs?
As Daku pointed out, people are constantly asking questions
and trying to figure them out. Is this a mental need? Anyone
out there exist without asking questions and attempting to
solve them? Everywhere people are discussing problems and
solving them.
If it is not a need, then why does everybody do it all their
lives, generation after generation, civilization after
civilization?
Hey, this not personal in the least. I love all you guys. Of
course I think Steve is doing great work and has an incredible
breadth of vision. So do lots of others here. This is just
spirited discussion. Is there some resistance to be discreated
about having a discussion where the energy ramps up a bit?
-Yogi
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: Belief Systems
Sent: 20.02 - 3/22 2001
Hi Guys. I've been catching up on the posts, and this stuff
about beliefs. It reminded me of the chapter about 'History of
Belief Systems" in Living Deliberately. I swung over to
www.avataroverdrive.com and re-read that chapter online.
Actually, I probably do that about once a month when I find my
brain getting bloated and stiff. I'll re-read it, start
laughing at myself, and lighten up.
Maybe we could get some of those "emoticons" on this
board, so we could give others fair warning: like one brain
emoticon if today you're posting as a type 1 belief system,
two emoticons if you're posting as ...well, you get it.
It's really worthwhile reading: page 29 of the book, I think.
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Shift changer
Sent: 20.01 - 3/22 2001
Hey Lyle,
What do you mean, I'm not exactly detached? Of course I am.
Actually I try to play with it all. Attachment,
non-attachment, detachment. Depends on which side of the bed I
get out of. And you know what, they are all a lot of fun.
Cyndy
Name: Curious
Topic: Robbins
Sent: 19.45 - 3/22 2001
Does anyone know when Anthony Robbins next book will be out?
It is supposed to have been published by now.
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Opinions and beliefs
Sent: 19.13 - 3/22 2001
Hi George:
Watch out George you're treading on uneven ground here.
There's this sillyness afoot in the world that says you
shouldn't hold an opinion or belief, that you should be
detached from them, pick them up and put them down.
Well Hells bells George that's a belief too. And one George
that I don't cotton to in the slightest.
Everybody's got an opinion or a belief--even if its hidden
from them. All the people out there that would condemn you for
standing your ground or duking it out over something have
strong opinions about what you should do or not do.
George I agree with you. I have very strong opinions on some
things in this life and so do a lot of other people on this
board. Steve has beliefs and optinions, he'd drop them in a
hearbeat if he saw a better way. But he knows when something
provides a certain result. Obi Wan certainly has strong
opinions and beliefs. William Takada and Teko and Beyond One
are certainly not above opinions or beliefs. Eldon--my god
that boy never had an opinion he wasn't in love with. Yogi has
expressed strong opions. Cyndy isn't exactly detached. Mack is
a stallwart in his beliefs.
And I know for a fact that even Steve Karl has opinions and
beliefs. He might rail against creations, but he needn't. He's
expressed some very strong views.
Now there's a belief out there that says there's always two
sides or multiple sides to every story and that every socalled
truth is a half truth. I don't know that for a fact.
If I take a position on something or have an opinion its
because I've tested that idea out in life. I'm willing to
listen to another view, but if that view doesn't pass muster,
I let it pass by.
I know if do something over and over and get the same result I
trust that it will likely give the same result again. Then I
start to form an opinion about whatever it is.
There's people who will tell you about being locked in
creations or that having opinions is rock headed. Not me
brother.
I am opinionated and arrogant and I accept it and I love it.
If I believe something I'll let you know. I won't force my
opinions on others and I allow the other fellow the right to
be dead wrong.
But there are some beliefs that have passed the test of time
for me and I hold them. And I love and accept having beliefs
and opinions. Thank God there's people who will speak up for
something they believe in.
Remember this the next time someone tells you that your locked
in a creation. Asked them if they're locked in their creation
about yours.
Lyle Talbot
Name: Steven Karl
Topic: Strong Positions
Sent: 19.07 - 3/22 2001
"I'm attached to the idea that the sun rises and
sets."
Some were attached to the idea that the world was flat, too.
Actually I think it is great to hold strong positions. And
even greater to hold strong convictions in times of great
strain.
Perhaps just realize that you are making these beliefs.
Realize that they are just beliefs that you hold and not
necessarily the laws of the universe. But it is your choice.
Hold on to them, let them go, it is up to you.
Just remember that you do have a choice.
By the way, Geroge, to answer your questions--
Some
Yes
Conservative
Physics
Physics
Name: Jeremy
Topic: Core Transformation
Sent: 19.00 - 3/22 2001
I recently did the core transformation technique .I was amazed
at how just asking yourself just two questions could take you
to such a high state of consciousness. Does anyone out there
understand how this works. I love the process.
peace and love
Jeremy
Name: George Purnam
Topic: Steve Karl
Sent: 18.41 - 3/22 2001
Steven Karl, I personally think it's okay to have a position
on something, even a strong position.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Are you against drugs and murder in the streets?
Are you a liberal or a conservative.
I personally hold no truck with this new age bs that makes
people feel guilty about positions.
What law in the universe says you can't hold a position? Or
hold it strongly?
Some values and beliefs are worth holding onto.
Sure it's great to step in and out of belief or be detached
from it. People in groups will often call you defensive or
rigid. They want you to move from your position.
I have positions that I hold to because I've tested them out.
They make sense. I listen to what the other mug says, but if
it doesn't fly it's not going to budge me from my position.
I'm real tired of hearing this new age blarney about picking
your beliefs up and putting them down. Not being attached to
them. Well I'm attached to the idea that the sun rises and
sets. That I need oxygen.
There are certain beliefs that are nearly immutible.
There are dead on truths. The detachment bs is for people who
don't like to argue or have a fight.
If I believed in something I'd express it.
Ghandi didn't back down from the brits and now India is free.
FDR believed the facists were bad news and he held that belief
until he died. God bless the man.
If you believe something stand up for it and don't be a whimp.
There are verities in this world.
I don't believe heroin should be sold to children.
I believe everybody should get 3 squares.
I believe beliefs make our feelings. I'll look at any new
evidence, but I believe that with all my heart and soul.
People can take advantage of people who are detached from
their beliefs. They'll walk all over them.
Give me the guy or gal who stands for what he or she believes.
I can trust such persons. I can count on them.
Call me rigid or rock headed, at least I can stand for
something.
I advise people to hold onto your creations when you know it's
important.
We would not be here in America or Europe unless someone had
some convictions. Our cities would be overrun by the lawless.
New Age garbage in the trash!
George Purnam
Name: Mirika Chen
Topic: Heart to Heart/Roy
Sent: 17.26 - 3/22 2001
Heart to heart: I read the book and did its exercises. All the
Heartmath processes are in a book by Doc Childre. It is not
clearing nor will it take you to any profound states. It
purports to shift your mood and helps you make clearer
decisions. I found it somewhat useful to use. But my feelings
kept returning after awhile. It was sort of a bandaid. The
exercise to help you make grounded decisions seemed okay. I
buy that the heart is a powerful region. I would give it a
Cplus. Nothing like the tech around here. The Heartmath
Solution is a nice read and talks a lot about the heart as 2nd
brain. That part was interesting. But as a tech I'd give an
above passing grade. I find Emoclear, Core Transformation, and
Sedona far more useful techs.
Roy: That seemed like it might have been a somewhat
interesting tech, but you did not provide enough information
and some of it was very hard to follow.
I could not understand by what you meant opeing up a thought.
Do you mean it in the sense of Tarthang Tulku? Would
appreciate it if you could make clearer what you said because
I do not understand some of your communication.
Love, Mirika Chen
Name: Heart to Heart
Topic: Freeze Frame
Sent: 16.38 - 3/22 2001
So does anyone know what these Heartmath techniques are all
about. What are the freeze-frame and cut-through methods they
speak of about? Is it usefual tech?
Name: Justine
Topic: Heartmath
Sent: 15.57 - 3/22 2001
HeartMath is a book--lots of reviews on Amazon. It says that
the heart has brain cells and its own intelligence. Here's a
blurb off Amazon:
The "intelligence" that the authors focus on refers
to both the heart's "brain," or the 40,000 neurons
found in the heart (the same number in the brain itself), and
the intuitive signals the heart sends,
including feelings of love, happiness, care, and appreciation.
When such positive emotions are felt,
they "not only change patterns of activity in the nervous
system; they also reduce the production of
the stress hormone cortisol." When there's less cortisol,
there's more DHEA, the so-called fountain
of youth hormone known to have anti-aging effects on many of
the body's systems.
The HeartMath Solution outlines 10 steps for harnessing the
power of the heart's intelligence, including ways to manage
your emotions and keep energy levels high. One of the most
important is the "Freeze-Frame" technique for
calming the nervous system, improving clarity of thought and
perception, and boosting productivity.
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Interesting Read
Sent: 14.41 - 3/22 2001
Mack,
Thanks for the URL to www.thinker.com. What an interesting
read. I haven't finished it all, but will later.
I am struck with the notion, that it is a good thing that I am
alive today, and not in earlier times. I would have been
hooked up to one of those truth racks long ago.
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Mathemagician
Topic: Heart Math
Sent: 12.36 - 3/22 2001
Hey I was reading a board dealing with releasing and the
sedona method and somebody mentioned something called
Heartmath without saying much about it. Do any of you guys
know anything or have any positive experiences with this
heartmath thing. Is it another releasing technique?
Name: Dove in the East
Topic: If Steve and Shining Light can end it, can you?
Sent: 10.19 - 3/22 2001
Glad Tidings to all!
A dove flew forth from the arc.
It had been 40 days of raining wants and needs.
The dove flew straight away to a mountain above the waves.
The rain halted and the sun came out.
And the little wants and needs danced and sang with glee!
We've met our baser needs and now we're free!
Dove in the East
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Daku
Sent: 10.01 - 3/22 2001
Daku: I really do wish people might hit this needs vs Wants
& preferences and let it go. I think people continue to
hassle with these notions on bothsides for a number of
reasons. They value what's being put forward. They
passionately believe their viewpoint is not being the least
bit underderstood. It clearly isn't from what I read posted
here. I'm all for people letting others have their own
thoughts and beliefs in a live and let live world. I want
that.
But knowing human beings as I do I believe there is a strong
desire for people to express themselves and be understood. Not
necessarily believed or bought. What I see here is people
really knowing their position is being completely miscast and
misunderstood by its opposition. Now without embracing or
believing what's put forth if both sides would step back for a
time and fully examine what the other is saying, step into
their shoes and this debate might surely die away. That's the
way it has been on this board. I see no one here who is an out
and out salesman for one point of view. I see people here
trying to come to grips with some not so easy to understand
concepts for some people. I see some very strong emotional
reactions going on and I see people not really hearing what is
being said on either side. This will pass. It's struck a nerve
for some people. There are some who actually believe their
freedoms will be torn away if they give up making parts of
their life into absolute necessities instead of strong
preferences or wants.
And on the otherside I see people who are profoundly bothered
by the idea that their thoughts on the subject are being
grossly exagerated and distorted so as to not resemble what is
being put forth.
I can feel the frustration on both sides as well as the
frustration of a few who would want to move on to what they
might find more interesting.
I urge people to do what they want. If you still need to make
sense of it--fine. If you want to discuss another topic fine.
This will pass, it always does here. Things go in cycles.
The speed at which this passes will likely have to do with
people really taking a look at the issues involved and step
past their emotional responses.
Take care, Steve
Name: Shining White
Topic: My point, B.O,
Sent: 09.38 - 3/22 2001
Beyond One, you have your finger on my pulse. Your question is
excellent. Saying "I survived, but my honor dies"
puts a hole in the middle of me.
I assert that: "A gut held belief about NOT needing
something, we really DO require, can create havoc in our felt
states and physiology."
You seem to have found a real response that does. Got more?
Name: Obi Wan
Topic: Enlightenment, again.
Sent: 09.31 - 3/22 2001
Dear Steve K.:
Many years ago on Saturday Night Live, Steve Martin and Dan
Akroyd did a riff about the two "Wild and Crazy
Guys": very funny stuff. Anyway, Steve says to his
potentential date "you don't have to worry about herpes
with me: I've been cured lots of times."
That's how I feel about enlightenment. "I've been
enlightened lots of times."
I'm pretty sure there is a "Path to Enlightenment",
and I'm pretty sure that it leads in a general direction, but
although parts of it are well-lighted, I sure don't see an end
to it. But every step on the path is a wonderful adventure,
and worth leaving home for.
I suggest you try the new search engine on
www.avataroverdrive.com and type in "enlightenment".
I like a lot of Harry Palmer's stuff on this subject. Or any
good search engine.
Keep breathing and trust the force
Obi
Name: Steven Karl
Topic: Enlightenment
Sent: 09.05 - 3/22 2001
Hopefully without creating another controversy I have a
question.
Does "enlightenment" really exist, or is it just a
concept of the mind?
By that I mean is there really some spiritual state achieved
or is it really just a mental delusion of feeling really
really good?
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Multiple models, viewpoints
Sent: 08.16 - 3/22 2001
Teko,
AHHH, yes!
And isn't embracing multiple models, a model?
Transcending all models, the ultimate model. Open to
experience it all.
Cyndy
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Steve, NAP,Teko, Cyndy
Sent: 08.11 - 3/22 2001
Steve: Your yes answer demonstrates that wants, preferences,
and desires are powerful things. I believe should end the
debate.
NAP I wish to trumpet loudly what Steve Mensing, Cyndy, and
Mack have said. I want to thank you personally for putting
this Forum up and that beyond wonderful tech page. Besides
being fun, the forum and the tech pages have helped pull a lot
of people out of the water with emotional difficulties. Your
websites have delivered fresh ideas to a lot of people out
there. These boards are making a difference in the quality of
life on this planet. More and more will be stopping here as
the months progress. The tech page ids a powerful magnet. The
forum discussions, even if they branch over into the
netherworld of philosophy, are helping people sort out their
lives. Actually I find your tech page and forum to be actively
promoting the higher rungs of Maslow's ladder of values. If
people use the Emoclear tech and other information posted here
they will be in the act of self-actualizing before long.
Teko/Cyndy:
Steve shows no single model from what I see either. He has a
profound disinterest in being bound to single models. In many
respects he reminds me of Erickson who eschewed theories like
a duck running water off its back. I see Steve Mensing as
multi-multi-modelor as well. His tech combines multiple-models
galore. I too have heard him explain things from a wide
diversity of angles. His mind seems far to creative like
Erickson's to be bound to a single model. He appears to
operate from a nomodel-model that embraces chaos and
uncertainty. Steve is completely eclectic.
You'll see this even more when he sends indigenous techs over
here.
If you've ever heard about doing therapy, he seems to present
a different way of doing things with each client. His model
forms out of what his client brings him and how the client
operates. Now you might call this a client centered model, but
I feel it is far more than this. His is the infinity model.
Lyle Talbot
Name: NAP Webmaster
Topic: Kind Words
Sent: 07.33 - 3/22 2001
Steve, Cyndy, Mack,
Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated. I am glad I have
been able to facilitate this board.
(Steve, your check is in the mail.)
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Paradigms
Sent: 07.28 - 3/22 2001
Yogi once shared with me about this great mathematician, Kurt
Godel. His major contribution is called the Incompleteness
Theorem. It is a body of set theory that logically proves
there can never be a single theory that explains everything in
existence which cannot be shown to be inconsistent with
itself.
So from that viewpoint is where I explore from.
I see Steve as merely offering a model to experience life
from.
There are other models, other paradigms. It's up to you to
decide what fits with your reality. If this model isn't for
you, no problem.
I just happen to like it. Maybe someday, I'll explore another
one.
Daku...I don't by that thing about organizing. Like Lyle, I
have found confusion and chaos to be quite neat. Try it, you
might like it.
Cyndy
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Appreciation
Sent: 06.57 - 3/22 2001
I want to join Steve in expressing my gratitude to the
anonymous person, the NAP webmaster, who runs this forum and
the Tech Page. I know in the last seven months I have made
more gains than in many years.
It is only by his staying focused on the intention of what
this board is about, that I believe the board has grown and
developed.
I am aware of some of the hassles he has had to put up with.
Both technical and by posters demands. And by the somewhat
inconsiderate posters that sometimes come by here.
I have gone to other message boards, the same kind of vibe and
level of discussion is hard to find. In my opinion, it is
because of the webmaster. He is responsible for this wonderful
creation.
From the bottom of my heart, I thank you.
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Ending the Wants vs Needs debate
Sent: 06.37 - 3/22 2001
It just occurred to me how we might end this wants vs needs
debate once and for all. Teko's post about either/or thinking
and how it has entered strongly into this conflict has
triggered an idea for me.
Since I know Steve is being misinterpreted grandly by a few of
the people on the board I will ask a key question which should
stop once and for all the debate on this very important issue
and clear away any of the either/or obscuration going on. I
have seen over and over Shining Light and one or two others
distort the notion of of Needs versus wants.
Here are the questions I would pose to Steve that should end
this debate once and for all.
Steve old boy:
Would you be willing to fight for any of Abraham Maslow's
values even though you regard these values as wants,
preferences, and desires?
Would you struggle to have your wants, preferences, and
desires met?
{It is these areas that keep getting misunderstood by others.
There's this sensibility that if something isn't a necessity
for living ,then we're going to toss it out and walk away from
it. The only thing we'd walk away from is our stress from
holding onto a falacious and self-defeating belief}
If Steve says yes then this debate is sanely finito.
How much more can he make this clear?
With Love, Lyle Talbot
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Daku
Sent: 06.21 - 3/22 2001
Daku:
I believe I apologized in spirit to the late Lester Levinson.
However I found his method of reducing cetegories of feelings
to their pureist form to be unworkable because of the simple
fact that it takes you out of your feeling and provides you
possibly with another. I find this sort of reduction to
lacking in merit.
I have no problem whatsoever with combining seemingly opposing
elements in life and making do with them.
It is a leap to call blaming the universe a reduction to the
smallest parts? Eh? The Universe is the largest part isn't it
Daku? This hardly seems like a reduction does it now. You may
accuse me of the reverse: expansion. But please not of
reductionism.
Think about it for a moment. Anything that happens either
within you or without you is part of the Universe? Are we not
a part of this universe? Is not everything, every system,
every being a part of the universe? True? Then we can safely
and sanely blame the universe for everything that happens.
I blame the universe for your numerous opinions.
I blame the universe for you.
As for causes--these are human ideas and may not necessarily
if at all be in play in the universe.
It is a gross mistake to bring human logic into trying to find
out what looks like an unsolvable mystery.
Who created the universe makes no sense to me when I can't
even fathom that the universe was created in the first place.
The universe and its potentialities may have existed always.
Why would a who or a what need to create it. If this is the
case then we are stuck with the next question: who are what
created this who or what? This line of questioning could
telescope way out.
Frankly I have no interest whatsover into trying to logically
solve a mystery which appears unsolvable on that level. Unless
we were there or had absolute records of the beggining of it
all--we could never know. And what if there were cycles
involved?
I believe, from a human logical standpoint, that there are
inherent laws governing this creation process throughout the
universe. However these laws are cognitive overlays on our
part. Descripters after the fact. Since they at least have an
existance in my mind of thought, then there might be laws in
existance out there creating this drama of the universe. I
don't know.
But mark me down as an aethiest. I love randomness,
indeterminacy, and chaos. I embrace them--they are my spirit.
Lyle Talbot
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Teko: Utterly Brilliant Post! Bravo!
Sent: 05.56 - 3/22 2001
Teko:
I'm up with the Canyon wrens this morning and drinking some of
the most delicious coffee that a dear friend sent from West
Africa.
Teko I read you absolutely square on post this morning. It
truly touches the frustration I've felt and I'm sure others
posting here felt since the very wise notion that Steve put
forth about the extremely important recognition of what is
needed to physically survive versus what are wants and
desires. Knowing this difference can cut down on stress when
you don't have those elements in your life right there and
then.
Steve's ideas on this subject would have won in a total
walkover save Teko for the fact of another common human
distortion either/or thinking. You Teko have hit the nail
right on the head. The opposing forces have been making
either/or statements all along.
I agree fully here with you Teko. The opposition has miscast
what Steve and other said in a very large way. Steve has
always been for the wanting, desiring, prefering of all of
Maslow's list. He has never once said a single jot about
giving them up or not fighting for them. This has been a
complete misattribution by Shining Light and Others. He has
attempted to put a philosphy of life on Steve that he doesn't
espouse in the least. Yogi did this inpart last night.
They are reading Shining Light's either/or approach as
Steve's. It isn't happening and that is what has kept this
debate alive and made it somewhat inflametory at times.
It is very clear to me and to others what elevating non
necessities for human survival will do for you on a stress
level. It's uncalled for. What gauls me and other posters here
is that people are totally misreading Steve's very clear and
precise intention to keep those Maslowian wants alive, to
fight for them if that what is desired. Steve has never once
said a single jot about giving up what you want or prefer--not
once. But Shining Light a few others insist on making an issue
out of an issue that Steve and many others here have not
raised.
I dare anyone to say Steve has not strongly or actively
promoted self-actualizing values. He simply has the wisdom to
know the difference between something that would be life
ending and what is not.
However he has clearly stated that you do not give up your
strong desires or preferences, just that you will not die from
temporarily not having them or losing.
Needing nonnecessities will screw someone up badly when life
inevitably provides that gap.
You may strongly want or prefer and fight for your internal
freedoms, but you will recognize that you won't die from not
having them at least temporarily.
You can fight for your freedoms unstressed by the psycological
need for it.
You can fight for your freedoms stressed by the psychological
need for it.
I know what I would chose. It's easy.
Teko I loudly applaud you for your ability to see into the
distortion of either/or thinking.
Steve is not tossing out your freedoms, nay he is making it
far easier to acquire them.
Lyel Talbot
Name: Daku
Topic: Yogi and Lyle
Sent: 03.47 - 3/22 2001
Yogi- great post on the possible existence of driving forces
beyond the physical. Hope the posters pick up on this topic of
noble human passions and let go of the needs/wants squabbling.
Lyle- here's a little challenge for you: You tossed off a bit
of a put down on the people you labeled "petty
reductionists."
But then you said you agree with the statement, "The
universe caused it."
Are you being a grandiose reductionist here?
Who causes the universe that you agree causes everything?
Whose universe is that?
Also, would you please get in touch with me off board?
Playfully,
Daku
Name: Daku
Topic: Having the last word
Sent: 03.23 - 3/22 2001
Gosh, y'all have been so chatty since I last had time to drop
in. I had to read two and a half pages just to get caught up
here. Lotsa long posts, too. We must have a need to keep the
needs/wants thread going.........or do we just prefer to?
In scanning this whole conversation I notice that there are
two items that should be added to the needs column -
organizing thoughts and believing. Shorthand for this would be
called, "making sense of."
The one thing that humans cannot not do is cease organizing
the data that enters their minds. We must make sense of
everything (save for those items that are so totally alien to
our existing mental structures that we simply cannot
categorize them...in which case we classify them as
uncategorizable and thereby make sense of what cannot be made
sense of).
Comparing with and categorizing data by what one assumes they
already know is an automatic process on a par with breathing.
Since you cannot willfully stop either for more than a brief
period of time before it kicks back in on its own, I am
propounding that that organizing thoughts is a basic human
need.
Believing is a necessary component or extropolation of this
need and provides a platform for the communication of ideas
both within oneself and between others.
Every post in this whole thread could begin with the following
preface:
"I have read the other's ideas about needs vs. wants and
have compared their comments to my own world view which I have
been ceaselessly, automatically organizing and constructing
for my entire lifetime. What follows are the beliefs that
other's beliefs have stimulated in me. I present them as
substantive persuasion for the sense I have made of them
within myself and wish for you to comprhend."
What's even more curious and interesting than the simple
expression of opinions is the defense of opnions and the
formation of alliances based upon agreement.
Are you a fierce defender of the Mensing position or are you a
loyal member of the Shining White camp? Or do you maintain an
individualist's perspective and agree with neither? Are you a
universalist who can see the merits of both arguments?
The need or desire to be right about one's opinion seems to be
largely what's carried the conversation on for as long as it
has. The same thing being said (with perhaps some minor
variation) over and over again by members of both camps
demonstrates the importance placed on being right. Who will
finally prevail as the victor?
Or if it is not a matter of winning the argument, is it a
demand of being granted validity for a differing opinion than
others are expressing?
I know that I have had a need (ok, a self created need) to
feel that I've been heard and understood by others even if we
don't agree on who is right.
What drives us to to the relentless insistence upon a
particular point of view as being the correct one? I think
this is the question that holds the most potential for
yeilding the greatest personal value to come out of this
conversation.
Daku
Name: Yogi
Topic: To die for a want
Sent: 19.57 - 3/21 2001
Hey Bigbrains,
I read that whole discussion on wants/needs. I was at work
most of yesterday and today, so I'm late to it.
I found myself agreeing that the necessities for a biological
organism's survival are fairly easy to identify, and if an
organism doesn't have these things, it will surely die, so why
stress out about that stuff anyway?
Now, a nagging issue stays with me. Are there psychological
needs that an organism may physically survive without, but
which will drive, say, a whole race of people in a certain
evolutionary direction over a period of many generations?
The example that spurred this question is the historical
struggle for "freedom" that oppressed people, who
are under rule of a dictator, or just enslaved as a social
condition.
These people will, and very frequently do, give up their lives
rather than settle for not having whatever they perceive
"freedom" to be.
Although it may not be a physical requirement for their
survival, they are simply quite unwilling to live without it.
Is this a grey area? Can you imagine someone like Malcolm X or
John Lennon kowtowing down to slavery because they realized
that they could still survive if they gave up their freedom,
whereas they might get killed for demanding it?
Why does a movie like "Braveheart" have such appeal?
I actually have a good friend whose country has been torn by a
vicious civil war. His father was a church leader who incited
his people to fight for freedom from an oppressive government.
That government exiled his father, and after a few years
dispatched some assasins to take his father out, which they
did.
My friend's whole life is about helping his people. I have
personally witnessed him going 48 to 72 hours without sleep,
and whole days without food if necessary, just working out
ways he can help his people. It consumes him. He has often
said that if someone shoots him, tough. He will still not shut
up.
According to our discussion, this person must be insane,
because he has obviously elevated what we have been
considering as a nonnecessity to the level where it is more
important to him than biological survival.
I doubt he would agree with our discussion that freedom is a
nonnecessity, just something we want, or prefer. Many have
given up their lives for this cause, and in fact, a whole race
on our planet defines its history over the last three hundred
years entirely as a struggle from slavery to freedom.
This implies that the impulse to gain freedom transcends any
individual, and many individuals die willfully hoping that
people who they will never know, who haven't even been born
yet, will benefit from their sacrifice.
We have historically considered such people as wise and
courageous, and made them heroes. We have not considered them
insane. Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, JFK, etc, the
list goes on and on.
In fact it is at the core of western religion that Jesus gave
up his whole life to free us in some great spiritual way. Not
to mention the Islamic concept of Jihad.
I am not endorsing or denying these beliefs, I am just
pointing out that they occupy a place of central importance in
our culture.
In fact, it is also a central part of American history. World
War II was defined as a struggle for freedom against
dictators, and millions went to the grave rather than kowtow
down.
With all due respects to the Dalai Lama, is not His Holiness'
own life a dedication towards helping people free themselves,
physically, politically, and spiritually, as well?
Billy and Steve, can I sell you into slavery if I promise not
to kill you? You would at least survuve. And I'll take away
your families, too. You don't need them to survive. Your
spouse and kids are just preferences, right?
I think it merits some deeper consideration, O Mighty
Bigbrained Ones.
-Yogi
Name: Mack
Topic: Hear Hear!
Sent: 19.47 - 3/21 2001
My heartfelt thanks as well, NAP! Yo da man!
Name: God
Topic: Atheists
Sent: 19.43 - 3/21 2001
I heard a rumor some believers are wondering if I'm going to
smite the atheists who hang out here.
Nope. Sorry to disappoint you. Don't care if you humans
believe in me or not. Honest.
Never worry about believing that I exist. You can if it makes
you feel better but it isn't necessary; and it really doesn't
matter, to you or to me, if you do or you don't. Trust me on
this.
On the other hand, if you find you really need to worry about
something, then worry about ME believing that YOU exist, and
what might happen if I ever stop doing that.
Fondly,
God
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Steve Karl
Sent: 18.27 - 3/21 2001
Steve Karl: I humbly apologize for any misundertandings I may
have produced with my verbage.
Although I am not greatly enamored with Mr. Levenson's 9 major
categories of feelings and would very much agree with my
friend William's assessment of the the workings of the 9 major
categories, I most humbly apologize if my previous statements
appeared derogatory to this fine gentleman and his tech
offering: The Sedona Method. Let me say very clearly here that
I actually like the Sedona Method itself and believe I have
said so in numerous posts on this board. I found it among my
several favorites such as Emoclear, Core Transformation, EFT,
and TAT. I would likely add Avatar, but I have never done it
and will at some future juncture. Probably with Mr. Daku when
I can back up North again. I would say very definately that
the Sedona Method is a good method and worth every penny I
ever paid for it. I took it with Lester Levenson and found his
a very warm and kind fellow, a credit to his Sedona Method. I
have recently chatted with Mr. Dwoskin at the Sedona
Associates and found him to be a most amiable, obliging, and
knowledgeable fellow about his method.
He was ever so kind to not only answer my very pointed
questions about his Holistic Polarity method he ran me through
it over the phone. He took 30 minutes of what I am sure is
very valuable time. So I would give my thumbs up to Lester and
his method in general and not the category list that is the
bane of many I am told.
I too found it took me out of my now feeling. But not
everything the jewler turns out is of outstanding quality.
This is a bold fact of life. And I may hold some subtle
differences with the last two questions. They have worked for
me, yet I have seen others struggle with this part. So I say
here the Sedona Method is a good and solid process.
And to you Steve Karl I offer my heartfelt apologies if I in
anyway have hurt your feelings. This was unintentional.
Sometimes when I am struggling to think in the morning I do
not write as clearly as I would care to. I was caught up in
the moment.
But my apologies to you and to Lester wherever he might
reside. Imperturbability I would assume.
Much Love, Lyle Talbot
Name: William Tekada
Topic: Steve K.: Peace Brother
Sent: 17.56 - 3/21 2001
Dear Steve K.
I in no way implied anything negative about Cambodians. I was
merely joking about using a Cambodian dictionary to gain
English words. I would never denegrate a fellow asian or
anyone for that matter. I am Japanese.
Look I don't desire to prove a pointless point. The main thing
is that preferences fall into the exact same category as
wants, desires, and like to haves. They do not create a dire
requirement for living. Frankly that they showed up in a
thesarous is fine enough for me. I'm not interested in
splitting hairs. They do not cause the stress of a need or a
must have.
Now I read Lyle's post and I saw it knocking more of
reductionist viewpoints. Lyle likes Lester Levinson's tech. He
just noticed that more than a few people get hung up on the
last two questions. I think that's an honest observation. And
I would have to agree that Lester Levinson's observations on
core beliefs doesn't pull it for me either. I read Lyle's post
over three times and I don't really think it was so much a
knock on Lester personally as it was on the trap of trying to
reduce elements to their smallest number so they conveniently
fit a theory. It isn't my thinking, but in some psychiatric
quarters they would tend to see this shrinking of
possibilities as a form of thought distortion. It may be a way
people try to simplify chaotic complexity. I have personally
done the Sedona Method and basically enjoyed it and profited
from it.
I tried his watering down the feeling process to the single
core belief in each category and found it didn't work for me.
It not only did not work well for me, it missed what I was
truly feeling. His reduction here took me out of contact with
my real feeling. Not all theories fly. I have talked to at
least 15 other graduates of the Sedona Method over the years
either from my original group in New Brunswick, NJ and to
people who post here. I have yet to meet a single person who
uses Lester's Core Beliefs. To a man and woman they tried it
and dropped it. They all told similar stories. It took them
out of their feeling states to another feeling to no feeling
at all. Lester Levinson was no keen student of the human mind.
He was a business man who borrowed freely from New Mind
Science. He was a member of the very earliest periods of the
New Age. He was a son of the times of Ernest Holmes and
William Declancey. I have heard all of his tapes. He was not a
giant or very deep as his lectures on the mind point out. He
was a nice guy. A solid business man who got a lot of milage
out of a solid method. I and Lyle do not knock the method or
the man. We just don't think much of his core belief scheme.
Not because it is reductionist. We simply know it dodges the
real present time feeling. The rest of the Sedona Method
works. I even like the Holistic thing they got from either
Idenics or Scientology. Hale Dwoskin is a hell of a nice guy.
There are several on the board who met him or who have done
work over the phone with him.
But Lyle and I are not knocking Sedona.
Please accept our apologies for any misunderstandings.
William Tekada
Name: Teko
Topic: George: Biocircuit
Sent: 15.31 - 3/21 2001
George: Steve's circuits are overkill. I can only go 25
minutes tops before they cycle over. If you're tired when you
get in a circuit it will zap you out.
You might try bringing the squares closer together on your
spine. Slide them a bit more toward the middle. That's what my
girlfriend does. They zap her too.
I really like them. I do left nasla dominance breathing in
them with space synchrony exercises. It really takes me into
some very deep turf.
Teko
Name: George Purnam
Topic: Steve: Biocircuit
Sent: 15.21 - 3/21 2001
Steve, I got very relaxed, maybe too relaxed in the two times
I played with the biocircuit. I was dreaming within 10 minites
of taking those handles. I just fell into a deep slumber. I
was a bit tired before I tried them. They sucked me under
fairly quickly. I was getting the energy streamings and very
vivid theta imagery pretty quickly. But I could not control my
need to sleep. It put me down like a fast acting opiate. Is
there anyway I can control the overrelaxing properties? Move
the squares higher or lower. I found this way, way stronger
than my Tools for Wellness screens. It was knocking me out.
George
Name: George Purnam
Topic: Curious: Mind Science Book
Sent: 15.14 - 3/21 2001
Curious, The book where a Release Technique look alike appears
is "Mental Sciences for the Everyman"
by Roger Konig
It was either that title or "Mental Sciences for the
Millions" It was published in the 40's and was in print
until the late 50's. My dad had a copy. You might put a search
in at an out-of-print bookstore.
It asked just about the same questions.
If you're looking for Sedona it's in Michael Hutchison's
"Mega Brain Power". Also Patricia Carrigton wrote:
"The Power of Letting go" There's lot of good
information there on releasing. The Hutchison book has the
whole run down.
The D.I.E. up on the tech page is a different, high tech way
of doing releasing. Most times the target blows out before you
get to the end. It's a great tech.
George Purnam (The Biocircuit works too good--it puts me into
the most sound sleep imaginable--someone could make a fortune
selling that to insomno's)
George Purnam
Name: Shining White
Topic: I'll take my meds now.
Sent: 14.47 - 3/21 2001
Thanks to Dr. X, and the support of compassionate companions,
I'll be settling back into my dull, sluggardly piece of meat,
where I shall no longer be a vexation to my friends. You have
my committment to breathe deeply, eat as often as I find food
scraps, sleep every chance I get, and to sew my bus pass into
my under trousers.
I'm convinced. Really. No, for reals, I am.
Name: Paging Dr. X, Paging Dr. X
Topic: There's a breakout on wing 5
Sent: 13.51 - 3/21 2001
Paging Dr. X! Paging Dr. X! Shining White is on the South
Lawn. He prefers freedom. He's temporarily free of the last
vestages of his mind. He's ABSOLUTELY mad!
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Emailers/Mack
Sent: 13.40 - 3/21 2001
Hi
What do they say about death and taxes? I don't want to start
any threads about certainty.
Special thanks to all you many hundreds of millions of
emailers who voiced your warm support for my easy to take
postion on anti-absolutistic belief systems. The words of
support from the Pope and the Dali Lama were uplifting. They
agreed about wanting and prefering. Your great faith in me is
being channeled over to Lester and Ken who are surely frowning
down on us at this very moment.
Mack:
Believe me when I tell you working with folks isn't always
energizing. There are times when I meet clients who really
don't want to be here either because wifeypoo is pushing them
or their unconscious does not want to involve themselves in
the client's stated goals. Many times I meet folks who
absolutely have no faith that they can make alterations in
their lives. This makes things interesting. I work unconscious
to unconscious so that makes the load easier. Still I connect
with people where I feel their feelings very intensely. I've
shed tears here and felt some very deep pain, yet there's a
part of me that knows how to let this go. Thank the Universe
or I'd be a pathetic mess. I know professionals are supposed
to be emotionally detached. I'm not really. I feel what they
feel and this is a conduit between us on many occaisions. It's
painful and enlivening. It passes. And most times I feel very
alive and energized during the process, yet there are times
I've felt deadness and numbing just like the person seated a
few feet away. This is my style--I wouldn't reccomend it to
everybody. I really need to let go and surrender to this
process. If I don't, I would be overwhelmed the way I work. My
unconscious is a good tightrope walker and knows what to do.
We all have this innate ability. Often those two
consciousnesses become one during session. But there is pain
in it--it doesn't stay and if it lingers it has some valuable
messages about what is taking place. It's a very worthwhile
and makes you feel very alive kind of profession.
Take care, Steve (I'll let go of the horse's head if you let
go of the tail SW--it's starting to smell out the joint)
Name: Curious
Topic: Mind science book
Sent: 13.22 - 3/21 2001
Does anyone know the name and author of the mind science book
from the 40's that has a similar method to Sedona in it?
Name: God
Topic: Dear IRS
Sent: 13.11 - 3/21 2001
Dear IRS:
I'm offering you the same deal I offered Lester and Ken.
You've got 24 hrs.
You NEED to pay
God
Name: Vorchog
Topic: Prefer
Sent: 11.39 - 3/21 2001
Judge you mean I have a preference here in Utah?
I prefer a firing squad over hanging. I love the illusion of
choice. It's so much better than needing lethal injection or
beheading.
Vorchog
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Mack:
Sent: 11.35 - 3/21 2001
We can agree that prefer, wants, and desires are all non
absolutistic in nature? Si?
I want one of those--anyone will do.
I desire several options here.
I prefer just that one and that one alone! Now or I'll die!
Have fun, Steve
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Mack:
Sent: 11.31 - 3/21 2001
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Marcarb
Sent: 11.30 - 3/21 2001
Marcarb:
I seldom if ever think in terms of needs or needing things.
Because of this feel pretty darn good.
Look at all my posts since August on the Archiv. Look at my
first person statements and count all the times I needed
something. I'd be curious.
I have the wonderful advantage of living in a need free world
(save for water, light, shelter etc.)I have everything I want,
prefer, or desire.
I haven't had a real cold in years. Seldom (I'd use never but
that would be too absolutistic) get down. Even Stephen. I
attribute much of this wonderous life to recognizing the
difference between needing and wanting, prefering, desiring.
Nonabsolutistic thinking works for me.
Take care and the Universe bless, Steve
Name: Mack
Topic: Is this horse dead yet?
Sent: 11.26 - 3/21 2001
If not, maybe let's give the nag another whack or two, just to
make sure:
Many agree that to "want" is usually synonymous with
"to desire" and we can obviously desire something a
lot, or just a little, or anything in between on a kind of
sliding scale.
To "prefer" is also to desire; and we can strongly
prefer something or be relatively indifferent about a
preference, exactly the same as with a "want". So
far so good.
However, the word "prefer" seems to imply something
that "want" does not seem to: specifically, that
there is (or there may be)more than one satisfactory option,
perhaps more than just one way to satisfy that particular
desire.
In other words, if I want something, implicitly it is THAT
which I desire, and typically nothing else, especially if I
REALLY want whatever it is that I want.
In contrast, if I prefer something, even if I have a really
strong preference for it, my desire for it does not seem to
automatically exclude other possibilities, or rule out other
ways for my desire to be satisfied.
The underlying theme to these linguistic distinctions seems to
be about more options vs. fewer options, or, stated another
way, more freedom vs. less. Few would argue that "I
really gotta have it" is a lot more confining (and
stress-inducing) than "I would really prefer it".
This is much more than semantic hair-splitting to me: I was
helped a lot by cognitive therapy in general 20-some years
ago, and by Beck's work in particular. Until then I had not
realized just how severely I had been limiting and restricting
my experience of life, just by my description of
"reality".
Hey, that's a good excuse to segue to salute all you
practicing therapists out there and acknowledge the work you
do. For you non-therapists, know this: it takes massive
dedication for them to do what they do.
Despite a lot of training as a therapist, I have not and will
never actually practice for two reasons. First, I am too
easily overwhelmed by and drawn into the average client's very
real pain. Second,I have difficulty remaining compassionate
because I am repelled by the typical client's firm belief that
he or she is a victim at the mercy of circumstances and with
little or no control over anything in his or her life. I call
this the "victimology" and to me, leprosy is far
less revolting.
The necessary clinical detachment in the face of real
suffering is often beyond me, as is the ability to balance
that with true compassion and understanding needed to confront
victimology and work with it patiently.
In fact, this combination of attributes is so extraordinary it
is far beyond the capabilities of the average person (and of
many critics of therapists too!)
When I read Steve post about coming away from a session with a
client feeling energized, I am impressed: my experience with
clients often left me so drained I needed therapy myself
afterward!
So....Support your local therapist folks...like golf,
conducting effective therapy is a hell of a lot harder than it
looks!
All the best
Mack.
Name: Dark Being from Marcab
Topic: If I could build a planet...
Sent: 10.45 - 3/21 2001
Imagine this. Throw some of each of these guys in one room:
psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, behavioralists,
Buddhists, Avatars, Scientologists, Sedonists, and a couple of
kidders. Put a lot of letters after everybody's name.
Make half the guys millionaires, or close to it. The rest
probably headed in that direction at a fair pace.
Then start them talking about what's a "basic need."
Hey, what about the need for charitable work? The need for art
appreciation? The need to publish or perish? The need for a
decent tax shelter? The need for a decent rasberry truffle
sprinkled with cocoa powder? The need for a decent
greenskeepper at the club? Tell us how you relly feel.
Oxygen? When was the last time you really thought, "shit,
I need some oxygen."
Name: X
Topic: I NEED A BIOCIRCUIT
Sent: 10.16 - 3/21 2001
I NEED A BIOCIRCUIT! THEY ARE A NECESSITY FOT SURVIVAL!
X
Name: William Tekada
Topic: Lyle is 100% correct
Sent: 10.14 - 3/21 2001
Steve I agree with Lyle. There is a multiplicity of reasons.
I didn't see Lyle knocking Lester Levitate. He knocked the
tech and the feeling list. That's not the same as knocking the
guy. I separate people from their productions. Levinson by the
way took credit for the Sedona method and the exact same thing
was in Mind Science back in the 40's. Almost the same letting
go questions. Just a few alterations. I don't think he's a bad
guy. I like Sedona. It was one of the first I ever learned.
But those questions trip up some people.
William Tekada I've got to go back to the grind.
I hope nobody gets all heated up by these posts. I notice that
Shining White and Steve are alswhere while others still argue
the case.
Case closed. I think everyone can agree needs causes stress.
Wants and preferences don't.
William Tekada
Name: William Tekada
Topic: My Oxford Dictionary
Sent: 10.04 - 3/21 2001
My oxford dictionary backs up the definition of a want.
2nd meaning: Want: To desire or to give preference to.
Sorry Steve, but there's about 74 dictionayies out there. Most
people never consider them anyway. I wanted a parrallell
meaning and my thesauri showed preference twice. I also herar
it that way in the common parlance. At the very least you
would have to admit they fall within the same area. Surely you
see that. I think you're nit picking.
Preference, desire, want all works for me.
Steve used them as potential alternatives to needing
nonnecessities. They are an alternative to needs. It's needs
that is the culprit not wants or prefernces.
This is what is being driven at here.
William Tekada
Name: Steven Karl
Topic: More Corrections
Sent: 09.53 - 3/21 2001
I see that you guys have been using your thesauri. Have you
been using your dictionaries too? Please open them. Your
interpetation may not be the standard interpetation.
Wants brings up a feeling of needing or lusting. "I want
that."
Preference bring up a feeling of, "I could take that or
that."
That is a world of difference. Please open your dictionaries.
Lyle,
I realize on the surface it seems that people come to altered
states for different reasons, but open the mind and look
beyond. Take a step back. Every culture has its booze. Why
does morphine work on the human body? It is biological. I
don't think it is simplistic to say that the human biology has
a certain structure.
And why would you knock Lester Levenson? Maybe he doesn't suit
you, but he has helped many people.
Name: William Tekada
Topic: Justine: It's okay
Sent: 09.43 - 3/21 2001
Justine: That wire doesn't have to be straight. If you have a
6'10 boyfriend or husband that might be a straight line. Mine
loops over a bit. I'm only 5'10.
Teko's about 6'8 or 6'9. It's might be straight for him. It
shouldn't effect the circuit any. I like them great. If I ever
need to get some extra rest I get in them and roll over after
a half hour. Those circuit kill insomnia.
William Tekada
William Tekada
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Steve K.
Sent: 09.14 - 3/21 2001
Steve K.
I believe and notice that people come to altering states for a
myriad of reasons. To deny that there are differing reasons is
to deny the reality of many people's statements.
It is common for people to want to believe in one big reason.
It cuts out uncertainty, but it will never fly with me. It's
just like saying there's just one reason for heart attacks. Or
just one reason for breast cancer.
There are a multiplicity of causes at work in almost anything
in the this world.
It is simple minded and simplistic ttry to boil things down to
just one notion. Okay the universe caused it. That I could
agree.
But I have had people come want to alter their consciousness
for many, many motivations. And I can not boil them down to
one just to make things homoginized.
Some people may desire oneness.
Some want releif from anxiety.
Another from depression.
Someone wants a sharper memory.
Another want to cure his insomnia.
The list is endless.
People like Lester Levanson try to look for fallacious
singular reasons.
Hell if went after cancer that way all we'd have in the end
was the myth of a singular cause.
I agree with anyone who sees multiple causes.
I hear far to many differing reasons to want to project some
myth of singularity onto these people. They obviously come
from different motivations. That is clear as day. I'm not
about to call these people liars. These are their thoughts and
feelings.
The Lester Levanson's of the world are petty reductionists.
His attempt at watering down feelings into a lists was an
utter failure and next to his list of questions at the end has
produced failures for may in his Sedona system.
Lyle Talbot
Name: Steven Karl
Topic: Corrections
Sent: 09.07 - 3/21 2001
Uhmm, Billy, I have some bad news for you.
Actually Ken is also dead.
Do you really think people see wants the same as preferences?
Sorry to dissapoint but there is a vast difference.
Checking the dictionary-
Want- (1) To feel a need for (oh no!). (2) To crave or desire.
Prefer- (1) To like better.
Does anyone really agree with Billy that wants and preferences
are the same?
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Billy D./Cyndy
Sent: 08.58 - 3/21 2001
Billy D. and Cyndy:
Incredibly wise posts.
Wants give a freedom of choice and can help someone detach
where needing is very absolutistic and self-defeating if it's
wrongly applied.
I recognize on a feeling level that needing is very stressful
and wanting or prefering is not.
Steve K: My thesaurus backs up Billy D. Under want it lists
preference. I've always thought wants were preferences. And
visa versa.
The contention here is between wants and needs. I'm sure Steve
M. recognizes the value of preferences over needs as well.
Preferences are like wants to me.
Billy D. I too had some training in RET. Preferences and wants
were listed in the same category as nonabsolutistic thinking.
Lets hear about biocircuits. Cyndy and Billy closed the show
as far as I am concerned.
Steve K: Do you really think wants are insane? Are you a
Buddhist?
Lyle Talbot
Name: Steven Karl
Topic: Needs, Wants, Preferences
Sent: 08.30 - 3/21 2001
Billy,
I'll do you one better.
Needs are insane.
Wants are insane.
Preferences are where it is at.
That message was courtesy of Lester Levenson and Kenneth
Keyes.
Name: Billy DeWolf
Topic: Wants vs Needs Moot Points
Sent: 08.08 - 3/21 2001
Hello:
I read this very interesting discussion on needs versus wants.
I'm afraid to say the research has already been done.
The book here is virtually closed.
The studies I've read over the years tend to strongly
underscore what Steve has been saying.
I have seen studies that rate the distress caused by
having beliefs that are caused absolutes.
Needing something/anything is an absolute. I think we can all
agree upon that.
Wanting something/anything is not an absolute.
I've read data showing very convincingingly that needing
something will generate high volumes of statistically measured
stress.
Wanting something will not generate anywhere the amount of
distress.
It stands to reason that it would be extremely emotionally
economical to choose beliefs based on wants.
Think about it. It seems pretty easy to me.
Take this simple test. Think of something you like.
Make it into a need and it will cause you way more stress than
having it as a want.
Wants are much more economical emotionally because choosing
them is far less stressful.
I think Steve is totally right on and anyone arguing against
his wants versus needs point is going to be producing needless
stress.
We have the choice to see something as a want or a need.
Needs by definition are necessities.
Wants automatically provide a freedom of choice.
You can choose to see anything in either context except
for--guess what: survival necessities. Those are water, air,
shelter, clothing, light, sleep
The above items are accepted by western science and any
intelligent being as the bare essentials for what a human
being requires to live on.
I studied with Dr. Albert Ellis in New York and he once spent
an entire afternoon pointing out the problem inherent in
choosing absolutistic viewpoints.
Stress was one of them. A whole list of socalled negative
emotions like anxiety, depression, etc.
All of these have been statistically linked to absolutistic
beliefs. A need is an absolutistic belief.
Common sense alone tells me it would generate way more stress
and crummy feelings than a want would ever.
If I was to put Shining White (with the statements he/she had
about need ins inregards to survival)on Castaway's Island and
I was to put Steve (with his statements about wants in regards
to wants) I can guarantee you that Steve guarantee you Steve
would
be stress free while poor Shining White would be in a mega
paroxyism of needyness and stress.
We can choose to make anything ,except true survivor needs,
into a want or a need. Good judgement would inform us that
wants are a far easier choice. They simply provide less
stress.
Anyone, and I mean anyone who would argue against this premise
would be setting themselves up for a lot of crummy and
unneeded feeling.
Absolutisms suck. Always, never, need, forever all fall into
this category. Beliefs formed out of absolutisms will buy
their believer a hellish and might I say unneeded time.
Why need when you can just choose to want. The statistics back
it.
You can prove anything is a need. These are selfproving.
You can prove anything a want. These are self-proving also.
Wants are where it is at baby. Needs are insane.
Billy D.
Name: BeyondOne
Topic: Buddhist Proverb
Sent: 06.07 - 3/21 2001
Words have no arrows nor swords, yet they tear men's minds to
pieces.
Name: bryan
Topic: needs & wants.
Sent: 05.18 - 3/21 2001
please excuse me if anything i say has already been
meantioned, i've just come in on this forum.Yet i feel i have
something to contribute.
Is it not important to become aware of whether the need or
want is really as the conscious mind percieves it to be.The
example given is that of a girlfriends love and i follow with
this example.Many have a subconscious need for the love not
recieved as a child and as that need has been supressed to a
subconscious level the person is unaware that they project
upon a person who shows to them "love" or close
intimacy that need.As the need or want is not in the give and
take of the present relationship the greatest chance is that
the relationship will not last, until the one can differ
between past needs and present wants.
It is in this respect that i believe that the "pain"
is due to the conflict between past subliminal needs (love and
affection is a need as much as food and air to a very young
child)and the attempt to satify that need, unaware of it's
true nature, in a present and unrelated context.
When aware of the past subconscious needs one can then
seperate them, deal with them as required and develope present
and future "wants".
bryan
Name: Teko
Topic: Needs vs Wants
Sent: 23.59 - 3/20 2001
I have followed this thread about needs versus wants and
frankly I'm somewhat surprised why some are not getting this
keen difference.
There is an emotional equation that seems incredibly clear to
me. I would think it would be very clear to Avatars who are so
much in touch with the power of beliefs.
As I look at this problem I see the following.
If you believed a girlfriend's love was a need or a
requirement of survival and you thought you were going to lose
that love you would be very anxious. Losing that love would be
on the order of life threatening would it not?
If you regarded your girlfriend's love as something you
wanted, like it would be really good to have it, but I'm going
to survive and move on regretfully then if you thought you
were going to lose it you might feel alert and on edge, but
the feeling would be nowhere near as strong as needing it.
From a practical and wise standpoint, it might be a lot
smarter to see and believe love was a want, which is rather
than taking it up several notches to a need.
Making it into a need which I don't see at all would make it
very, very painful. Way more painful than if it was a just a
want.
Now what am I missing here. I see needs as something I require
to stay alive and nothing more. The rest are wants.
I'm sure not going to die from missing any of Maslows socalled
needs. Just the survival needs.
On a practical standpoint it is unwise to elevate nonsurvival
desires into needs. It creats unneeded pain and even more it
can be lousey motivation. If you think you're going to keel
over from something you could fail at then you'd have a nice
dose of anxiety as well.
Teko
Name: Shining White
Topic: Needs and preferences
Sent: 22.45 - 3/20 2001
Dear Daku, you wondered if "the NEED of a consciousness
is to have a body to occupy as a vehicle for expression of
creativity?"
Nope. It's a preference, in my humble opinion.
****************************************
Dear Others, and esteemed Steve Mensing:
For another aspect of this discussion, in a fashion that has
been generally accepted for decades (oh gad, what a
generality, what a loaded phrase, what propogando/PR) try this
presentation of Maslow's hierarchy of needs:
http://www.wynja.com/personality/needs.html
And for a little more advanced thinking on even higher orders
of needs:
http://www.valdosta.peachnet.edu/~whuitt/psy702/regsys/maslow.html
I find this entire disussion extremely valuable. Particularly
where it agrees wuth ME.
Love and Light
Shining White
Name: Yogi
Topic: God, where have you been all my life?
Sent: 22.03 - 3/20 2001
God,
Smote? Is that liked Smoked, like Northwest Salmon, or like a
good hotdog?
Hey, make me one with everything!
-Yogi
Name: Daku
Topic: A bear's life
Sent: 22.01 - 3/20 2001
I just got an email describing the lives of bears on bile
farms in China. They lay immobilized in cages for 15 years
with a catheter in their gall bladder and the harvested bile
is turned into shampoos, elixers and aphrodisiacs. It didn't
say what happens to them at the end of 15 years.
Sounds glum but hey, they have all the food, water, oxygen and
shelter that they need, right?
Steve, I think your list of needs applies to the body only.
What about the consciousness that inhabits the body?
I think Shining White has pointed to the other half of the
equation. We express creativity in everything we think and do.
Maybe these function are so all pervasive and transparent that
we take them for granted but some intention got us into these
things in the first place.
I wonder if the NEED of a consciousness is to have a body to
occupy as a vehicle for expression of creativity?
Just wondering..........
Daku
Name: God
Topic: Yogi
Sent: 21.31 - 3/20 2001
Yogi: Just for that last crack your life will become empty.
I smell other atheists here as well.
Lots of them.
They will be smote.
G
Name: John Gastly
Topic: Needs, Biocircuits, Matt S.
Sent: 21.22 - 3/20 2001
I could see what Steve was driving at. Those needs were based
on requirements for staying alive, not living the good life.
Confusing those requirements with wants could make life
difficult on an emotional level. People do that and pay a
price. I find this argument to be mindopening. Personal
difinitions can define our lives. Create our feelings. In
Cognitive therapy they would consider any belief making a need
out of a nonrequirement for survival as a thought distortion.
I'm afraid I would have to agree with them.
I found the needs argument to be interesting and valuable.
Absorbing Black: I made biocircuits awhile back and found them
extremely useful for stuck states and blocked energy tech. I
found that the biocircuits I made could overcome allergies. I
used my biocircuits to clear my allergy to wheat, peanuts, and
rye. I held those items in my hand and lost my allergy for all
three items and they have never come back.
I also find the biocircuits relaxing in the extreme. If I'm
restless and need to sleep, they will konk out the monkey
mind. I will sleep like a baby when I use the biocircuits late
at night. They zap jet lag too.
Matt: I will get back with you shortly unless you want to ask
that question here. I have been away for several days on
business.
John Gastly
Name: Yogi
Topic: Enlightened Atheists?!
Sent: 21.04 - 3/20 2001
Why is it that two of the (in my humble opinion) most
spiritually grounded people here - Lyle and Teko- are avowed
atheists?
Why is it that the more I enjoy life, the less I NEED to
project some hidden megabeing as its cause?
Why is it that the Jerry Falwells of the world talk about GOD,
and the Buddhas talk about EMPTINESS?
Just wondering...
-Y
Name: ABSORBING BLACK
Topic: Needs Shmeeds!
Sent: 20.30 - 3/20 2001
Enough of this theoretical stuff. Lets come up with more tech.
Hey anybody have an exciting experience with your new
biocircuits? I'm still trying to get the materials. I think I
will make one of those headbands as well. How do you think it
might affect meditation?
Name: Shining White
Topic: And the knockout
Sent: 20.10 - 3/20 2001
And as important as some creations are, even they are just
creations. They come and go: they are impermanent.
Hey, no kiddin'. Is there anything more important than your
present life? Is any "need" more important, maybe?
Freedom of religion?
Freedom from thought?
Freedom from taxation without representation?
Freedom from tyranny?
Freedom to own property?
Freedom to create a life or a no-life, as you see fit?
(Is there a common theme here?)
Are "food, oxy...., etc" Numero Uno Supremo?
Name: Shining White
Topic: And he's out of his corner...
Sent: 19.37 - 3/20 2001
He leads with a looping left:
Mensing says: "my life is far richer than my ability to
create. I have a relationship, a wonderful daughter, lots of
interests, valuable tasks to do (non creative of course),
music to listen to, books to read, friends, duties, fun
things, miniature golf. I could go on and on here."
Mensing, Mensing, Mensing. Those things ARE your creations.
YOU create them. (Stop me if I'm going over your head, here).
Are they not as important as "food, oxy...etc"?
Maybe more so?
Love
Shining
Name: Shining White
Topic: Once more into the breech...
Sent: 19.31 - 3/20 2001
Aw, Mensing. I had put on my jammies, said my prayers, turned
down the lights. And you had to ring the bell for round 2.
Ding!
Name: Shining White
Topic: OOOooooh!
Sent: 19.05 - 3/20 2001
I think I get it now. Thanks very much for clearing it up.
Name: Shining White
Topic: Yeah ? Sez Who?
Sent: 18.14 - 3/20 2001
Mensing, I throw your words back at you:
"...the only NEEDS I recognize are: Food Oxygen Water
Shelter and clothing in certain climes....These are utter
requirements for survival which would make them a need in my
experience. Everything else is just wants and desires."
Hey Steve, what makes your list "needs"? Do you
think they are enough to sustain life?
That's a real question: is your list enough to sustain life?
Here another question: if you think they are sufficient to
sustain life, what maked then NEEDS rather than WANTS or
PREFERENCES?
One more: you state you could live without hands or eyes
without getting bent out of shape. How do you feel about doing
without Goals? Games? Purposes?
Hey, I heard there comes a time at the end of one's life when
one has no more need/want/preference for anything on your
list. What do you figure you'll consider NEEDS at that point?
Offered with love: just curious on this
S.W.
(Mack, I like your distinquished post on
"preferences")
Name: Justine
Topic: Cyndy
Sent: 14.06 - 3/20 2001
Hi, Cyndy. I don't post anywhere else, so I don't know what
the site is that he/she had in mind. I'd like to know, too.
Might be interesting...Justine
Name: Roy Tanner
Topic: Steve: Very important differences.
Sent: 12.58 - 3/20 2001
Steve, There are very important differences between wanting
and needing and these come through very strong on the feeling
level. Needing can be very compulsive and debilitating if we
start needing things we really don't.
Interesting side note. Psychotics and addicts often have a
difficult time differentiating between real needs and psuedo
needs. They lack an element in their awareness. It's been
likened to cognitive deficit. These persons will also suffer
from dichotomous thinking styles as well where there is a
failure to note gray areas or middle grounds.
Someone joked down the page about needing a nonessential like
creativity to survive. It's sad that people have actually
taken their own lives after holding such insane beliefs.
America lost a great novelist to such a belief. Ernest
Hemingway blew out his brains because of his pseudo need to
create. He believed he was nothing and life was not worth
living because he found difficulty creating after a period of
shick treatments. Ernest had trouble with the psychosis Bi
Polar Manic Depression which takes many lives each year. He
could not differentiate between a need and a want and was
actually a tortured soul in real life.
Wanting something gives us a sense of freedom in life which
needing utterly fails to do.
Roy Tanner
Name: Justine
Topic: Mack/Lyle
Sent: 12.58 - 3/20 2001
Thanks Mack for the info about the Enlightment Intensive. It
sounds like my kind of vacation.
Thanks to Lyle, too, for being live and let live. At least the
hostile ones have had a chance to vent. The universe provides
:-)
Name: Dom
Topic: Justine and KaPhoney
Sent: 11.31 - 3/20 2001
Justine, Right you are Kaphoney doesn't cost a dime. Just your
good sense. We all know K-girl saves all those 3 x 5 cards and
sells them to recycling orgs for big bucks.
Get real. Check out your reality. Does she do card tricks like
Sai Baba? Dissapear into the ether?
Spare me.
Dom
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Needyness or LOVE SLOBBISM
Sent: 10.35 - 3/20 2001
Hi gang!
Feeling giddy after being with my last client.
Sorry about the above topic heading "LOVE SLOBBISM"
but I just love that phrase that Albert Ellis coined years
ago. Albert, the therapist who developed RET/REBT and who was
famous for his lack of diplomacy and tact, used the phrase
Love Slobbism when describing needyness. I'll call needyness
here loveaholism which doesn't sound quite as perjoritive or
funny.
Having lovehaolism probably isn't a laughing matter to the
folks who go through it on Saturday night or in the midst of
their relationships. It's pretty painful stuff and is
empowered by elevating wants into dire needs for survival.
I'll explain.
Loveaholism is a form of person addiction based on the notion
that we direly "need" a person or love realtionship
to feel happy or satisfied. Holding a particualr person or
love relationship to be a necessity for survival rather than a
preference can lead to:
Feelings of craving and desperation.
Involvement in unrewarding relationships.
Depression and loneliness when we don't have the needed other
or relationship.
Making us lonely or desperate looking which can drive
potential partners away.
Needing a certain person or a love relationship appears to be
a false need spawned by unhelpful beliefs. Adults can learn to
accept themselves and treat themselves with respect and love.
Further they can tap their own loving wellsprings. Needing
love relationships, rather than wanting them, has no
biological basis due to the observation that many adults, who
outlived their partners, manage both survival and enjoyable
lives. They generally hold the belief that they can still have
fun and feel loved regardless of having a special someone in
their lives.
Children and adults don't have the same requirements for
acceptance and love. Because of their knowledge and skills,
adults are more capable of meeting their own emotional,
intellectual, and physical desires than are kids.
We can choose to accept ourselves and treat ourselves in a
loving and caring manner. We don't require someone special to
take responsibility for accepting us and treating us
lovingingly and caringly. However it's nice to be close with
others in an unneedy way.
How do we arrive at this needyness--this core belief that
makes us feel lonely and unloved and quite hungry for these
missing ingrediants?
Some possibilities are:
As a youngster we may have met with some emotional neglect.
Mom and dad may have been caught up in work, interpersonal
difficulties, conflict, an inability to express care and
affection,severe depression, or they might have had substance
problems. Parents might have had a challenge empathizing with
kids and never made a good connection. Direly needing love may
also have been modeled by a parent.
Emotional Deprivation is one of the many Personality Clusters.
This cluster gives us the sense that others will not provide
us with affection, attention, direction, empathy,
nuturance,strength, and understanding. The beliefs are:
* I don't receive enough attention or love.
* People don't meet my emotional needs.
* I can't find someone for emotional support.
* Frequently no one nurtures me, cares for me, or shares their
self with me.
* No one gives me advice or direction.
* No one makes me feel special.
* No one give me affection or warmth.
* No one listens to me or understands me.
* Being with important others only makes me feel lonely and
misunderstood.
The above beliefs can be targets for your favorite clearing
tech.
Some tips on handling needyness:
* It is highly useful to sit with your aloneness or emptyness
and really feel it. With some attention and time you'll
discover it contains some powerful healing qualities as well
as love and wholeness.
* Adult love realtionships are not a prerequisite for our
survival and happiness. Likely you know other adults who
survived divorces or the deaths of loved ones and these
survivers went on to have happy and rewarding lives
afterwards...alone. Notice unattached persons who enjoy their
lives. Folks survive and thrive after the loss of others. Now
I'm not saying relationships can't be fun and rewarding. What
I am saying is look at the evidence that people survive and
have fun on their lonesome too.
*You can create or find happiness and vital absorbing
activities without the company of others. You've no doubt
experienced joy alone. Recall when you were mosat absorbed in
a job, hobby, walk, or ordinary thought or feeling and felt
good if not great. Did you know that most peak experiences
happen when someone is alone.
* List the benefits a love realtionship supplies. Can't these
benefits be met by either yourself or through friendships?
Typical benefits: Companionship, dancing, intimacy,
conversation, dining out, going to the flicks or theater,
hiking, travel, reading and posting on the NAP Board etc.
*We can diminish our moments alone or with friends by
believing: "I'm nothing special without a love
realtionship." or "This isn't as good or as deep as
being with someone special." Your evaluations make your
experience "good" or "deep".
* Believing you desire or want a love realtionship will free
you of desperate feelings and clinging. Believing you
"need" a love realtionship will make you crave one
and feel desperate when your false needs go unmet.
* Self-acceptance and knowing how to access your well-springs
of love can go far in creating a pleasurable life for you.
Couple self-acceptance with vital absorbtions and add in
friends and you can create quite a life for yourself.
*Can you recall having joy and pleasure with friends or
acquaintances without having a love relationship?
*Downing yourself for not having a special someone or
relationship is truly unhelpful. You choose the belief that
spawns this challenge--you can also choose to clear it.
* Active Feeling can be helpful in coming to terms with
needyness.
* Will your need for a special love person or relationship
help you toward your long-term goals? Keep you from
significant conflict with others? Provide you with the kinds
of feelings you would want? Protect your survival and good
health?
*Just because some people believe we "need" a love
realtionship does not make it a fact. Some folks often buy
superstitions and the idea that events and others make us
angry, anxious, and depressed rather than our beliefs about
events.
* Are feelings good evidence for the idea: We need a love
relationship? Are not these feelings the results of our
beliefs? Does feeling lonely prove your need or does it show
you may be in a loneliness trance and downing yourself for
failing to have a love realtionship.
* If we want relationships we better get out and get around.
We do not have to feel great to meet others. We just go out
and meet them
*Experiment with being alone--learn how to accept it and even
enjoy it. Being alone can be a wonderful time.
* Some folks sometimes experience suffocation being around
someone who acts desperately. Love hungry folks tend to be
self-focused and angry with thier partners. Loveaholics tend
to focus on what they are not getting and minimize their
partner's attention.
* Watch out for falling "madly in love with
someone"--you just might.
* Get involved with unavailable folks? This is a good tip that
you might be wrestling with the ghost of LOVE SLOBBISM! Sorry
I love that silly phrase.
* If we have a challenge with loveaholism we may also have
difficulty expressiong our wants to our partner (Love Slob
Bob) (Doesn't Love Slob role off your tongue just right?)
Desperation makes its victims meek.
And sometimes the ball rolls in the opposite direction.
We get angry with that innatentive numbskull! How dare they
not recognize our noble throbbing love starved heart! The
blokes! You get the drift.
* Hunting for that SUPER LOVE CHEMISTRY! The rockets, bells,
whistles and super bliss? Nada gang. This hints of guess what:
LOVE SLOBBISM 5th DEGREE BLACK BELT!
* If you meet someone who actually likes or even loves you,
don't run in the opposite direction. I know it may be uneven
terra firma gang--but these people might make better partners
for the loved starved who typically couple up with the high
chemistry unavailable folks.
*It's important to realise this: Needing creates a compelled
must have feeling. Wanting creates a sense of freedom. We can
chose it or not chose it. We can do it or walk away from it.
Needing makes it something we must have or do. Wanting
something doesn't mean we're going to do without it. We can
chose it from a place of freedom. When it's not available
we're not to going to roast ourselves over the flames.
Anyway have fun with your emptyness, Steve
Name: Dark Being from Marcab
Topic: Free Speech!
Sent: 09.34 - 3/20 2001
Dear Blue,
Let them talk. They're on the right track with this stuff.
They don't need no stinkin' oxygen: there are the sulfer
breathing viruses on Arturus 6, you know. And they don't need
food. Consider the molecules of the field: they don't toil,
and neither do they eat.
My suggestion to all is to seriously ponder how little you
really need. How to get by on less. Get rid of your appendix:
superfluous. Toes could go. The nose doesn't do much. Hair:
gone. Just keep subtracting things you really don't need much.
Pretty soon oxygen, food, water won't seem so damned
important.
After all, rocks get along just fine.
Name: Poster
Topic: needs
Sent: 05.39 - 3/20 2001
Here is a web page talking about Maslow's needs
http://www.valdosta.peachnet.edu/~whuitt/psy702/regsys/maslow.html
Name: macespace
Topic: human needs
Sent: 05.11 - 3/20 2001
First question:
"What to do about neediness?
Second question:
"What is the human need for mind altering
substances?"
The simplest answer to both of these, and many more issues
brought up on this board is this:
When you ask youself "Why" long enough, there are
some basic core ideas that you will discover. We have only
three activities that regulate absolutely every thing we do.
The first two are based on "needs", and the third is
based on the release from needs:
1.) The pursuit of pleasureable experiences (both internal and
external sensory impressions).
2.) The avoidance of painful experiences.
3.) The pure perception of experiences, with no desire/need
for movement of any kind.
I have found it progressively easier over the years to focus
on only these three statements in order to get to both an
intellectual and an intuitive understanding of why I am what I
am, and why others are what they are. In about 13 years of
such examination, I have yet to find a single human activity
(of my own or others) that does not boil down to these three
basic ideas.
Keeping life simple,
macespace
Name: Yogi
Topic: Needyness
Sent: 21.59 - 3/19 2001
Hi Never Enough,
When we can get a little break from all the bioengineers and
extraterrestrials around here, we can take a look at
needyness.
Needyness is looking for something outside ourselves that can
only be found within. The love we seek is in our own hearts.
By turning inside and going into the deep silence within, we
can connect to our source, and there find the sense of
well-being we so desperately crave.
Unfortunately, no other human being, no matter how much they
love us, can give us this well-being. It can, and must, come
from within. No doubt there are people that love you dearly,
but you are asking them for something that they cannot give
you. Then the disappointment comes when you don't get it.
The root of the dis-ease is the belief that you must go
outside yourself to find fulfillment. The cure is the
realization that you must go in the opposite direction:
within, not without.
Can you give yourself what you would seek from others? Can you
give yourself love? Understanding? Patience? Compassion? Space
to be free from judgment?
What do you feel when you put your attention on your own
heart? What if you were willing to go right into the center of
your heart, and fully experience whatever is there for you?
I humbly suggest the Infinity Drill on the tech page. Active
Feeling also. These things will help you get in touch with
yourself and what you really want, and where you can get it.
I also would recommend the Space Synchrony Drill after working
with those other two first. This will get you into exploring
the space within your self. You will find out, as others have:
outer space is small compared to inner space.
We can remain on the surface of our beings, pitched about by
petty desires and wants for small things, like a little raft
is thrown about by the waves. Or we can dive deep into the
ocean of our being and experience very deep, eternal currents
and energies.
In the absolute center of your loneliness is your Aloneness.
In the absolute center of your emptiness is your Essence.
Aloneness is a totally different phenomenon from loneliness.
Loneliness is painful, unfulfilled, needy like a beggar.
Aloneness is sovereign, complete, whole, like an Emporer.
Aloneness is hiding deep inside the loneliness, like the way a
pure diamond hides within a rough rock exterior.
Aloneness is the realization of Wholeness within, free forever
from any emotional dependencies on the other.
Loneliness is a painful longing, a feeling of missing
something essential, the pain of seaparateness. Aloneness is a
tremendous happiness, a joy in being oneself, a complete unit
of One.
Listen to what Lyle and I are saying: we are not just being
frivolous, we are speaking from experience. Make the journey
through loneliness to Aloneness. The embracing of your pain is
the key to liberation from it. Allow it to be there, without
trying to keep it or get rid of it.
You have tried running away from it for a long time. Tell me,
has it worked? Did all that avoiding bring happiness?
What you seek is located in the exact center of your being.
Your fulfillment is inside yourself. It is not, and never can
be, ouside in someone else.
Please do not go on trying to make others responsible for your
feelings. It hurts them, and it sets up a sense of betrayal
for you.
But the real betrayal is of yourself. No one is running away
from you, but you are running away from yourself. You have a
thousand and one diversions, a thousand and one excuses why
you cannot go within. A thousand and one mirages, just over
there, promising happiness and fulfillment.
All are pipe dreams. Leading to heartbreak. The next beautiful
lover, the next sympathetic shoulder, the next lovely promises
of how great it will be with the other.
All turn to dust. There is only one direction in which
happiness is possible, and it requires a 180 degree
turnaround. When all other efforts have failed, you will have
to face yourself.
And your Self has been there waiting for that moment for a
long, long time.
Welcome home.
-Yogi
Name: Sergey
Topic: teko, Wait a Minute!
Sent: 21.09 - 3/19 2001
Mack:
Look here (there are both mentioned pictures) -
http://www.tagil.ru/~sk/mensing/Biocircuit.html
Best, Sergey
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Neediness
Sent: 20.04 - 3/19 2001
Never Enough,
Lyle offered you a starting place and Steve may share some
added area's to target. I just thought I would share with you
my own experience.
I'm sort of like Ally McBeal in that I have theme songs. One
of them was a song by Prince, "When Doves Cry". The
lyric goes, "Maybe you're like my mother, she's never
satisfied".
I was never satisfied, nothing was ever enough. Never
fulfilled.
Until I started feeling my feelings. Here I was looking for
another to fulfill me, or thing to fulfill me. It wasn't until
I became fulfilled from within that I stopped looking outside
of self.
I think the Active Feeling is one of the most valuable things
on the Tech page. So please give it a try.
This isn't something that happened overnite for me. I didn't
have one of those instant blowouts. It has taken many moons to
reach this place. And yet it is ever so worth it.
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Mack
Topic: Biocircuit Use Correction
Sent: 18.41 - 3/19 2001
Aha! Thanks for the correction Teko, I'll just flip
the plates over and do it again correctly as you
recommend, later tonight. Interesting that I got any
effect at all...make the same mistake and hook up
your battery backwards and for sure your car won't
start.
All the best
Mack
Hey wait a minute Teko, are you callin my butt fat,
boy? Watch it!
Name: Bystander
Topic: Mad rush for bio energy
Sent: 18.36 - 3/19 2001
Lest we forget the poor dear who asked for our
wisdom about needyness. Everyone went for a mad rush
for these insane contraptions and forgot about that
person who really need us. For shame. Mensing give
her solace. We're all caught up in your vile energy
devices!
Mack you sold your soul for $13 to Satan. The number
13 how fitting!
B
Name: Mirika Chen
Topic: Boyfriend believes in Chi
Sent: 17.58 - 3/19 2001
Hi everyone, My boyfriend and I built a biocuit
today.
We has to settle for 10 inch squares. The work fine.
My boyfriend who is really a scientific type and
absolutely thought that Chi and Acupuncture were
pure belief now seems to have altered his ideas on
the subject after building the biocircuit doohickey.
He was the first one to try it and he's a total hog
let me tell you. He was shocked to feel anything in
it.
He said my God what's going on here. He felt energy
buzzing although his arms and legs and it unnearved
him. He felt these little streamings and nervous
twitches right after it started up. He said and I
quote: "This is really weird. I feel something
moving though my body. Is this what they are talking
about?"
15 minuteds into the circuit he asked if I had any
acupuncture or acupressure books in my apartment. No
but I had this book by John Thie called: "Touch
for Health". My boyfriend looked at the
meridian pictures for tracing meridians and he was
amazed. He said: "Those things are all lit
up."
He said this was a fair case for chi. He wants to
build his own circuit. He found it relaxing in the
extreme.
Love and Chi, Mirika Chen
Name: George Purnam
Topic: Eeman Biocircuit.
Sent: 16.19 - 3/19 2001
Steve, The Biocircuit worked like a charm. I fooled
with it twice this morning and got excellent
results. I'm not a big energy man. But this
Biocircuit certainly convinced me there's something
weird running in my body. It did not take long to
feel an actual streaming senation in my arms and
legs and up my spine.
I was fogged a bit when I started to mess with this
contraption. Inside of 20 minutes my brain was clear
as a bell. I felt my energy rise in a very relaxed
and calming way. In the last 10 minutes I was
drifting in and out of some very intense visual
imagery. I was not trying to run anything
specifically. Just get an idea what this experience
was like. I was like taking a long and very restful
nap. Like my batteries were recharged. My mood was
upbeat and grounded. I can see where this would be a
solid addition to running tech. It might even be a
tech in itself. I've been feeling energized ever
since this morning. At its wors I could see this as
a tremendous stress breaking tool. I'm making my
brother Roy one of these circuits and sending it out
to him. I really enjoyed it.
Does the Biocircuit book go much into detail about
the man who developed this oddity. Just think when
you persons are relaxing in your newly minted
circuits that some man had a biplane accident back
in 1915 so you could relax.
Just a thought,
George Purnam
Name: macespace
Topic: techno plates
Sent: 15.58 - 3/19 2001
1.) Since we are currently exploring biocircuitry
and associates, has anyone had any experience with
Tesla plates, sometimes called Purple Plates? I've
held some, but never been told just what effect they
were supposed to have on anything.
2.) On the Copper bio-plates, a few questions (what
did you expect?!)
- copper plates can be very thick, thus very
uncomfortable. Any preferred thickness (gauge)?
- why square shapes? Does the shape cause the
effect,or do you just need to slap any old copper
under your neck and butt?
- Steve mentions the "third" wire aligning
with the spine. How accurately? Isn't it insulated
anyway? So how does it cause any kind of effect?
macespace, just another mad scientist
Name: Cyndy
Topic: URL working
Sent: 15.41 - 3/19 2001
I easily get frustrated at this gall dang
contraption when it won't do what I want it too.
(not really..)
Those who can't get Steve's URL to work, if you put
www. in front of altered-state. Seemed to have been
the solution for me.
Well, I went looking for copper sheets. No luck at
the home improvement stores. From one of the home
improvement stores I was sent to one of those arts
and crafts places. They did have the copper screens,
but where out of the copper sheets. The other day, I
checked with the local hardware store and they have
copper roof flashing. I think I'm going to go with
that. Plus at the hardware store, there is such a
"cutie", I just know he'll be more than
willing to cut those squares for me.
Lyle,
Thanks for the verification on the hold. I love to
go with my gut instinct. It just is cool when
someone with know how comes along and verifys that
it was right.
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Never enough
Topic: Needyness
Sent: 08.17 - 3/19 2001
I've had several boyfriends bring it to my attention
that I am overly needy. I recognize this is a
problem for me and I would like to do something
about it. It is like I never get enough attention
from loved ones. I know some of my boyfriends have
only distanced me after I drove them away. In
relationships I feel unloved and neglected even
though I am starting to realize this is not always
the situation. It just feels that way. Any ideas
about how to get out of this?
Never Enough
Name: Matt S
Topic: Biocircuit headset
Sent: 07.31 - 3/19 2001
Steve & Teko-
Thanks for the information and the picture links.
That will make it much easier to build!
Steve, I think Lyle also mentioned something about a
biocircuit headset as well. Do you have any
directions on that?
Take care,
Matt
Name: Teko
Topic: Eeman url
Sent: 06.18 - 3/19 2001
Here's another good picture of what it looks like to
be laying on one:
Http://www.gene5.com/relax.htm#these
Teko
Name: Steve
Mensing
Topic: Eeman Optimal Circuit
Sent: 00.07 - 3/19 2001
Here's a website that provides a rough idea of what
the major Biocircuit configurations are. The one in
the middle is the Eeman Optimal Biocircuit that I
provided directions for building.
Here's the url:
Http://Altered-States.Net/Index2.htm
On the left side of your screen you'll see an index.
Click on biocircuits. When you get there, scroll to
the bottom of the page where you'll find 3 human
figures. The one in the middle is your baby. The
Lindemann beside it is also a good circuit.
Don't settle for anything less than 12 inch squares.
If I can come up with a better pic I will. There's
some really good pics in the Biocircuit book I
mentioned in an earlier post.
Have fun. If you're somewhat boggled by the
description, ask here before you drill anything.
If you happen to make your biocircuit tonight, then
do the following: Cross your left ankle over your
right. Allow yourself to relax anyway you know.
Close your eyes and do any tech you would enjoy
doing. Or simply lay there relaxing. Before long you
will begin to feel energy moving through different
parts of your body. Where there are any blockages
you'll experience twitches and tics. This will all
self correct over the next 20 to 30 minutes. Don't
stay in them past 30 minutes because you'll begin to
grow tense and restless as your qi starts to recycle
in another direction.
Take care, Steve
Name: Door in the Wall
Topic: Secret Badger Society
Sent: 20.52 - 3/18 2001
Mirika, It's well known that an old boy's secret
network exists on this page. They sit around in
darkened rooms and smoke cigars, trading secrets
like the Notek and the Koora Dreamer. There's only
about 12 involved...don't feel left out. We're
watching you. Soon one of our members will step
forward and contact you. You may hear clawing on
your door. Don't let that put you on edge. Have the
right answers though. You only get one chance.
Door
Name: Mirika Chen
Topic: Badgers? Finger under nose.
Sent: 20.37 - 3/18 2001
Hi:
Every now and then I see people mentioning badgers
on this page. Is this some sort of inside joke or
perhaps some code? I'm just curious. I recall a
frightful story of badgers murdering an ox and then
there was a recipe. It seemed dark humored. Please
someone tell me the meaning of these badgers.
Steve: Thanks for the biocircuit information. I'm
lost in a hardware store. My boyfriend says it
sounds easy to make.
Cyndy: The Medulla Un Hold at the start of the
D.I.E. has a finger in the notch beneath the nose.
Also the more recent Cortical Incident Runner uses
those fingers in the notch. That area is for
reversing reversed energy flows. I think using that
area makes more clear headed.
Cigarette Addiction is supposed to be harder to
break than Heroin Addiction. Nicotine is fairly
powerful.
People do it though.
Love, Mirika Chen
Name: Steve
Mensing
Topic: Beyond One: Missed Homer Simpson
Sent: 18.22 - 3/18 2001
Beyond One: Missed Badger attack on Homer Simpson. I
trust they did a representative job.
My daughter Rachel has comandeered the tv and has it
on Cartoon Network. Good for the Acme hour, bad for
Homer Simpson. Bugs is her fave.
The last time I saw Badgers on the attack was when
Ron Dayne was bullcharging through a Rose Bowl a few
years back.
My dad was a Badger. Wisconsin 39'.
14 years after the oxtail soup recipe.
Take care, Steve
Name: Jeremy
Topic: Where?
Sent: 17.32 - 3/18 2001
Could someone please tell me where to find Steve's
recomendation's on books and process's . I found it
the other night but can't remember where.
thanks
Jeremy
Name: BeyondOne
Topic: Badgers
Sent: 17.32 - 3/18 2001
Hi Steve,
Did you catch the badger attack at the end of Homer
Simpson tonight? Thought you might like it.
Name: Daku
Topic: Wart tech
Sent: 09.19 - 3/18 2001
Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer also had some wart tech.
You had to go into a graveyard at midnight with a
dead cat, find an old hollow tree stump with
rainwater in it, dip the cat and then spin around in
circles with the dead cat over your head, holding it
by its tail while doing a little chant that ended
with the words, "...spunkwater, spunkwater,
swaller that wart!" as you let the cat go
flying.
Beyond One- did gramma's tech get rid of the warts?
Don't know if a full moon was necessary for the
spunkwater method but it is interesting that
gramma's method involved a churchyard setting. Used
to be that graveyards were attached to churchyards.
Since a wart is a community of living cells does
this mean that a Buddhist would not take any action
to eliminate a wart?
Daku
Name: Shaman Johnny
Topic: Steve's World of Tech
Sent: 07.20 - 3/18 2001
I have noticed that Steve talks about studying a
variety of techs, eastern and western, ancient and
modern. Would it not be interesting to have a
"Worldwide Tech Archive" that would allow
people to study and play with this stuff for the
benefit of man and womankind? Just a thought.
Name: Bakti Love Orbit
Topic: Electric meter reader
Sent: 07.03 - 3/18 2001
Steve:
My meter reader is Sri Shaktipat Guru.
Bakti Love Orbit
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Neat thought
Sent: 06.00 - 3/18 2001
What a neat thought, "Good things are on the
way". I too get that.
I also get they will happen when they are meant to.
Patience my fellow travelers.
As far as the guru thing. Those that see Steve as a
guru, here's a hint. Great thing to clear. Clear all
those feelings you have about needing someone to
idolize, place above you, make greater than you. Try
it you might like it.
Mack,
I started smoking when I was sixteen, quit, went
cold turkey when I was thirty-two. I started smoking
again seven years ago (when I was 43).
In the last seven years I have been real creative
with my methods to quit. I've consciously created a
lower respiratory illness, I've switched to smoking
some really nasty tasting cigs. I switched to
smoking some stuff, that really made the desire for
nicotine go away, problem was I wasn't in any shape
to do much of anything. I even order this program
where you listen to this tape while you smoke.
A couple of weeks ago, I realized that I really
didn't want to quit smoking, what I wanted was not
to be addicted to cigarettes.
So what I did was clear that feeling of addiction.
You know the feeling..I have to have a cigarette or
I'll die. That sinking feeling you get when you
haven't had a smoke for a while.
Anyways, I was amazed. Over vacation I barely
smoked, and I wasn't irritable, well let's say no
more than usual..lol. It seems, I am in the place
where I can take them or leave them.
I've been so encourage by this, that I'm going to
work on some other complusive feelings. You know,
the ones that drive you to the refrigerator or the
cookie jar.
Eldon,
Long time ago I was in a twelve step program for
weight loss. In my group there were two who had also
been in AA for substance abuse. They said substance
addiction was way easier to work on then their food
addiction. Why? You can't give up food cold turkey.
As you know the failure rate for weight loss
programs is even greater than those 28 day programs.
So I don't agree with you...developing a program for
weight loss isn't starting with something easy.
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Mack
Topic: Guru Remedy
Sent: 22.21 - 3/17 2001
Ah, the burden of being too evolved. Well, here's
something that maybe Steve can use:
I once studied with a guy named Larry Hope who was
also unusually charismatic. What he did to prevent
being worshipped was keep an unusual 8x10 headshot
of a beautiful smiling baby with the most
extraordinary shining eyes. As a matter of routine
in his seminars and in his office as well, Larry
would direct your atention to the photo and invite
you to redirect any feelings of adulation that might
come up toward "Guru BabaGooGoo over
there". It seemed to help keep Larry from being
overwhelmed by people who wanted to make him into
something godlike, which of course he was, but he
couldn't get anything done when people treated him
that way.
So I can sort of empathise with Steve. Maybe on the
tech page a button could be added with "click
here in case of acute onset of guru-itis" and
baba googoo's pic could come up. Steve needs a
break.
All the best
Mack
Name: Yogi
Sent: 19.39 - 3/17 2001
Hey guys and gals,
Many possibilities are up right now. As it always
has been, NAP is a very exciting place to be.
I don't endorse making Steve a guru.
However, having a grounded center and a leadership
figure seems to work really well to bring new ideas
out in the open.
I will use an anology of music, for example, Bob
Marley. His message was universal and about people
waking up and freeing themselves. If you look at it
closely, Bob's music was not about glorifying
himself. He had a message, he had work to do to get
that message out. It just so happens that having his
picture on the album covers and having him write the
songs was efeective in helping him get the work
done.
My group is putting a CD out. We had a really cool
group symbol on the cover. We thought it was great.
Then someone outside the group suggested we design a
cover with the lead singer/songwriter's picture on
it.
The difference in the response people had to the CD
is amazing.
The truth of it is that people can relate easier to
a human being and a face than they can to an
abstraction.
So to stand for strong ideas becomes a double edged
sword. People will identify you with the message you
are carrying.
Many here seem willing to throw Steve out front and
charge forward.
I think Steve has a pretty good idea of how to
progress with the Emoclear tech.
We are very enthusiastic, no doubt, but I think we
can also spend sometime listening to and
implementing the ideas he has already been hammering
out and working on, too.
I am not in favor of pop-psychology gurus and
junk-mail kings. I think there's a better way.
My intuition says good things are on the way.
-Yogi
Name: Bystander
Topic: Teka--Steve's already a guru
Sent: 16.38 - 3/17 2001
Teka--I'm agraid Steve is already a guru whether he
likes it or not. If the shoe fits wear it. He's from
the linnage of the white hats. It's too late for
Steven. All all over the internet they talk about
him as a guru. Count the days before he shows up on
the guru lists.
Sorry Teka Steven is past the point of no return.
Bystander
Name: Teko
Topic: Daku: Cheering throngs
Sent: 16.17 - 3/17 2001
Daku: I think Steve's a bit embarressed by all the
adulation he's getting. He's not shy, but I sense he
would strongly prefer not to be idealized. I think
he sees himself as an ordinary human being who just
happenes to be turned on by the possibilities of
tech and growth. I really don't believe he wants to
be a guru or have all sorts of nutty things
projected on him. I think he accepts that some
people will distort him, but I know this doesn't
turn him on. He just wants to be a growth educator
and share with people how they can actualize their
potentials and have a vital and absorbing time while
they are here(his words).
He really enjoys hanging out with you guys and his
other friends. He really loves this forum.
Teko
Name: Teko
Topic: Steve & Emoclear
Sent: 16.03 - 3/17 2001
Hey Steve is an army of one at the moment. He's a
lone cowboy on the prarie. He's in the process of
going through the steps of building a cadrie. At the
moment there's plans for books, cds, videos, and
individual trainings. He's also interested in
developing the internet for potential delivery and
creating small cells as a way to learn Emoclear.
He's going to need individuals working with him and
money to get this expanding out. I believe the first
steps are to get books, workbooks, videos out there.
There will be trainings likely of individuals to
certify others in the processes. There will be a
volkswagon approach to self-help which utilize
workbooks, books, and videos to assist people
working in small groups to learn self-clearing and
other methods for personal growth and expansion. His
ideas about internet learning are breath taking.
Lurker mentioned an addiction workbook and Steve
talked about that as a near future project. It would
have people working directly with their compulsions,
triggers, and getting to feeling. It would also deal
with the typical belief sets found in the major
addictions. Personally I would think this would be
valuable in the extreme. The guys out there with
addiction desperately need something other than just
a detox. Their education needs to include learning
how to feel instead of avoiding feelings.
Steve's done workshops in the past mostly in
Philadelphia and Jersey. I have a friend who
attended one and they said it was quite an
experience. Years ago Steve used to teach a very
popular class on emotional coping and mastery skills
on a regular basis. Now I believe he wants to set up
more global learnings. He thinks the internet and
small volks groups would be the way to go. I think
he wants to keep these learnings affordable and in
some instances free, save for the instructional
materials. I believe he wants to put out
instructional materials as the first leg. The
internet learning idea might be automated with
videos and step by step approaches with people
working with others via instant messenger or live
audio and video.
Right now he's one heavily scheduled dude. I've seen
his calender full of clients. The guy gets an
unbelievable amount of emails from all over the
globe. He takes a few hours every day to answer
emails. I've seen him open up his email box and
there were 60 some new messages there. On days he
posts new tech that number can double for a few
days. He posts here when he can and answers his
emails dutifully. Before long he's going to need a
small cadrie or maybe a giant army working with him.
Someday before long there will be an Emoclear
website.
I agree completely about the ineffectiveness of 28
day programs. At least they provide a detox and
that's at least something. But the needed
educational components are not there.
Teko
Sent: 10.55 - 3/17 2001
As a title, may I suggest BURNING ARROW.
Name: Lurker
Topic: Addiction Workbook
Sent: 10.40 - 3/17 2001
Steve, how about an ADDICTION WORKBOOK? Like a
Resurfacing workbook, only slanted toward someone
recovering from an addiction.
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Burning Arrow
Sent: 10.30 - 3/17 2001
Thanks guys for your posts.
Steve, is there anything I can do to help Emoclear
get more of it's foundations in place?
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: William Tekada
Topic: Steve: Flaming Arrow
Sent: 10.11 - 3/17 2001
Steve:
Typically moving and wise post.
NAP people I recently met Steve in Philadelphia and
it was quite an experience. The guy has charisma by
by the mega ton. He's not a mountain--he's a
mountain range. If he ever stands before congress he
would dazzle them and the media. This guy is a force
in nature. You should all meet him. It's a
priveledge and an inspiration. As a story teller
he's incredible.
Truly what Lyle said about Steve is true. I would've
bet the house and the car that if he had been those
bastards' representative he would've hurt rope sales
in Nuremburg. He's that persuasive.
It's good that Steve is grounded and well balanced.
I know when he arrives he won't get caught up it in
the nuttyness. He doesn't need it and won't do it.
He doesn't need adulation. Money is nothing much for
him.
He's not some rigid idealogue either. He's selling
being present and feeling. Thank the Universe!
I know he has plans for addiction and self-help in
that area. Self-help has already influenced the
addiction industry. A new self-help is in order--one
based on clearing and feeling.
I had a brief flirtation with chemicals. I consider
myself lucky. But feelings were my way out also.
Steve's post pulled the poisonous plant up by the
roots and exposed it to the sunlight.
I think with the right approach and coalition
building, some years can be shaved off Eldon's 10
year estimate.
Go Stevo!
William Tekada
Name: Eldon
Braun
Topic: Detox/rehab programs
Sent: 09.20 - 3/17 2001
Steve, your strategic comments are right on. It is
the people forking out the money (insurance
companies and government) that will eventually pull
the plug on ineffective programs and begin
supporting ones that produce better results.
Yet it won't happen overnight. Someone said "it
will take decades," and even in this age of
instantaneous communications, even assuming a
concerted grassroots effort, I think it might take
one decade at least. The current programs, let's
remember, are supported not only by the
medical/psychiatric/old line psychotherapy
establishment, but to some extent by the
pharmaceutical industry. If they can replace an
illicit drug with a prescribed one, they will.
I wasn't attempting to say that conventional
cookie-cutter programs are better than mediocre,
just that they already exist and seem to produce a
minor number of positive results--quite likely
because of the "fellowship" made available
in group settings like AA and other support group
settings. Those programs are easy to set up,
rationalize and sell because they are pretty much
prefabricated. Even the staff training is
simplistic.
On that front, the answer might be infiltration. If
a couple of effective therapists were brought into
an existing 28-day program to work with
participants, and results were compared to a control
group, that would produce the sort of evidence the
establishment demands. It's a tedious process, but
otherwise, they will dismiss results from outside
the system as "unproven" and
"anecdotal."
On the other front--getting the word out through a
grassroots movement--Steve, you're sounding like an
evangelist there. The key ingredients are an
acceptable "brand name," an effective
message and consistent repetition. Plus, of course,
verifiable results.
The pilot for a formal program might be funded by
government or the insurance industry given the right
presentation. It shouldn't be hard to enlist a few
cheerleaders within those organizations. I would say
just pawn it off as a new experimental model for a
28-day program, leaving any worthwhile detox and
education segments in place. Some prisons are
putting inmates through ten-day meditation courses
for gosh sakes (the "Vipasanna(?)" long
word one). Even Scientology's Narconon
"purification" regimen, involving massive
niacin doses and marathon sauna sessions was getting
government funding for awhile.
So obvously, seed money can be obtained for programs
that are fairly far out. Who wants to turn this into
a project?
Best, Eldon
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Daku: He got my blood boiling too
Sent: 08.26 - 3/17 2001
Daku: I just saw your post after I posted. Yeah
Steve's post got my blood boiling and my optimism
soaring. When Steve gets goin he's a firebrand.
I wouldn't want to oppose him in a court room. The
boy's too damn persuasive and demonstrates evidence.
I think if he had been the defense attorney at the
Nuremberg trials we'd have a glut of first person
accounts of the Reich. The boy could put Johnny
Cochrane in a box and plant him.
The boy's a natural born.
But I found it completely true what he was saying.
It's easy to agree with someone who's grounded in
reality.
Blood boiler Steve!
I agree Dak.
Lyle Talbot
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Steve: Go git em!
Sent: 08.15 - 3/17 2001
Steve:
What you just posted is right on. The deathknell of
the disease model will come and will likely come
faster than people think. We really do live in an
information age. The internet is is a rocket for
getting the word out. The little guy can quickly be
on equal footings with the giants. David did bring
Goliath down to earth.
Go get em' Steve!
Yogi and Mack were right on too!
Addiction has far better answers. People should
check out Stanton Peele's website. He's been waging
a war against the diesease model for years. So has
Rational Recovery. These people know the score.
People can and do overcome their compulsions. This
is no fantasy.
Vipassana and mindfulness have been doing this for
centuries. Addicts need to go on an interio5r
journey and get back in touch or else they'll be on
an interminable death march and lead a half life in
darkness.
Go git em Steve!
That boy's even got me fired the f up!
Lyle Talbot
Name: Steve
Mensing
Topic: Yogi & Mack: Burning Arrow
Sent: 06.45 - 3/17 2001
Yogi & Mack:
I have every confidence that the disease model will
get disembowed. It neither explains well or
reasonably and most importantly it simply doesn't
provide someone suffering with a substance
compulsion a workable answer.
We already know a number of strong answers reside
out there for folks suffering from substance
compulsions.
The disease model will eventually be brought down to
earth and overwhelmed. Within recent years its
critics have grown powerful in number. The media is
starting to give more and more creedence to the
people pointing out something that is clearly
ineffective. I would be willing to bet at this very
moment there might be close to twenty books in print
taking up the cry against the disease model. Stanton
Peele wrote "The Diseasing of America"
back in the early 80's and it has set off other
alarms.
I agree with our posters that alternative systems
need to be put in place for people with substance
challenges. These alternatives would be based on the
compulsion model and the best ways to put people
back in the feeling mode. The tech already exists.
Actually it's existed for centuries. Some of the
ancient Buddhist meditation systems, taking into
account feelings, could deal well with compulsions.
Some very simple truths exist in our world.
If you've got something that produces results it's
going to eventually be the choice over something
that simply doesn't.
Insurance companies fall in love eventually with
methodolgies that show results. The bottom line is
that insurance companies do not enjoy "Throwing
good money after bad".
Within the last ten years they have completely
destroyed ongoing and expensive long-term therapy.
Long-term therapy, which showed little if any
effect, is belly up. Psychoanalysis and other
interminable monoliths have been buried by the
insurance companies. Results better count in this
world. Some speed should too. The insurance
companies are showing signs of developing an
aversion for 28 day programs. Someone posted about
state welfare departments pulling the plug on
repetitive trips to the 28 day land. I know this is
true in Pennsylvania.
The insurance companies are a natural ally of
anything cutting down on their insurance payments. I
am sure they would love to hear about brief-blowout
the compulsion model alternatives. They are not in
love with the idea of paying out all that money for
folks who are going out the backdoor and returning
through the front a few months or a year later. They
hate paying out money.
Insurance can murder the disease model with its
little or no results. Insurance is sniffing around
now. It gobbled up long-term therapy and now it's
clawing at the door of the 28 day programs.
Keep in mind we live in a different time now than we
did 20 years ago. Information moves at lightening
speed. You're currently parked on the information
highway. You think the internet doesn't make an
impact?
What needs to happen?
Alternatives need to be put in place. Some already
exist.
These alternatives have to pass through some hoops
so folks begin to realise the way out is through
drilling their compulsions between the eyes by
feeling their feelings and clearing.
Forums and websites can further this change process
as well as a proliferation of reading materials in
this area. The media can pick up the chant. They
helped do in long- term therapy.
News, focus shows, talk shows, newspapers, the
internet can provide information that can change the
landscape pretty quickly.
Organizations exist that will be altered or put out
to pasture when the disease model falls. It will. I
have every confidence. History records that you
can't keep chanting that the Earth is flat. Beliefs
need some evidence to keep them afloat. If they
don't get support they lose energy.
The medicos are required to do detox. It's just the
structure of programs that require alteration.
The compulsion model can be taught and ways to break
it down can also. It really isn't much of a switch.
Just some beliefs--a philosophy of handling
challenges that requires alteration.
Insurance pulls more strings in government than the
medical establishment. Insurance will win out in
this one. Multiple 28 day stays may be on death row
without alternatives ever showing up.
It would be a good idea if the forces opposing the
disease model united in their activity and sprouted
some movers and shakers in Washington and in state
government.
Some will cling to the disease model for awhile.
It's an easy fit for someone with an inclination to
handle life with compulsive defenses to compulsively
extoll the virtues of a religion that doesn't work.
It might work better for alternatives to not fire up
the defenses of the disease model advocates. It is
best to demonstrate results and build sturdy
bridges. The alternatives will be under attack from
the status quo--but this can be channeled into
positive publicity.
Respond with results!
Those people here who are interested in
alternatives, there's much that can be done. Get the
word out. Construct websites that address these
extremely valuable issues. Your actions could be
pull some folks out of the water. If you are
involved with training orgs, the substance area is
open season.
People could begin self-help organizations based on
handling compulsions with tech and feelings focused
approaches. Emoclear will certainly move in this
direction as Emoclear gets more of it's foundation
blocks in place.
Folks would rather dine at restaurants where they
didn't get handed an empty plate.
Take care, Steve
Name: Mack
Topic: I forgot...
Sent: 20.08 - 3/16 2001
...to mention in my post below, the most important
thing of all. Like some others have mentioned I am
VERY lucky to be alive at all, and VERY grateful
every day, believe me, that I was once a drunk but
ain't no more. F**k this "recovering"
stuff too...I'm recovered.
All the best
Mack
Name: Teko
Topic: Go Larry go!
Sent: 19.25 - 3/16 2001
Larry:
You're not a little gung ho about alcoholism? I
agree with you 28 day programs don't cut it much. I
had a run in with coke 7 years ago and it got me
running in the right direction. I was lucky too. I
got in touch with my feelings. Not from the 28 day
detox I did. They didn't have a clue about the
effect of feelings on creating compulsions. That I
discovered from taking up Vipassana and starting my
journey into tech.
I read what Yogi said and I say amen to that. I
consider myself a very lucky guy to be where I am
now.
I could have wound up dead. I was very lucky.
Getting in touch with my feelings got me back to
being alive.
I totally believe there needs to be alternatives to
the 28 day programs. Something substantial has to be
added to detox.
Teko
Name: Larry Hinds
Topic: Eldon: Factor this
Sent: 19.12 - 3/16 2001
Eldon, Also it's more than likely some of those
people who don't return to programs are still
boozing it and have given up on programs because
they knew they didn't work much...or they died.
Larry Hinds
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Eldon: Addictions
Sent: 18.30 - 3/16 2001
Eldon:
Do you have any ideas about how you might sell the
compulsion model of addictions to the standard
resources out there?
The gravity is extremely strong in standard
resources for keeping the status quo going. The
disease model and the idea that you are powerless
over your disease is what's sold out there. The
medicos back this strongly.
What we need are alternative structures to what's
out there not the refitting of ships that can't get
out of port.
There's a whole economy in the old structures that
will resist losing the easy buck of the 28 day
programs.
Eldon there are very few programs that use the
compulsion model or do any clearing whatsover. If
they existed you could probably find them listed on
Stanton Peele's website. If someone could show good
results with addiction and relapse there would be a
huge mass of people beating on the door.
The compulsion model is a foreign language to 28 day
programs. Except for Rational Recovery based
programs and a few others,the disease model is way,
way, way the most prevelent. It keeps people stuck
and disempowered. I say let the old structures die
and make completely new competitive structures.
Eldon I really do doubt that 30% succeed. I've seen
studies of those programs and they pad their
statistics big time. 10 to 20% may not come back.
Not 30%. This challenge can be handled way better
than it has. The knowledge is here. New structures
are needed. The medical establishment that runs
those 28 day programs almost completely supports the
disease model. People who want a way out almost have
to take their treatment into their own hands and
find out what's available.
Alternative structures! Competition!
Lyle Talbot
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Daku: Underscoring, Cyndy: trigger clearing
Sent: 14.56 - 3/16 2001
Cyndy: Clearing triggers means to clear the anchors
and emotional connections to certain events, places,
people, objects that set off cravings. These might
be items like: (1) A barroom atmosphere. (2) The
smell of a cigarette ashtray. (3) A certain person's
voice.
(4) A sudden feeling of loneliness. (5) An argument
with a boss or loved one. (6) A card game. (7) The
tinkle of glass. The clearing of triggers is done
the same as any other clearing. If it's an event
that turns on the compulsion, then you run the event
and strip it of its emotional charge. If it's an
aspect or singular item like the smell of an
ashtray, the smell is experienced and stripped of
its charge. The anchor evaporates. It's just the
smell of an ashtray again without the meanings and
feelings that bridged to the dire need.
Triggers are basically anchors to a compulsion. They
restimulate the compulsion. Clearing the feelings
that run a compulsion are primary. The triggers are
secondary, but blowing them out makes it easier for
the person to stay substance free until feelings
running the compulsion/addiction are felt and
integrated. Addiction calls for a multi-front
attack.
The main target is the feelings that blow around the
repetitive thoughts and images of the compulsive
need.
Take care, Steve
Name: Daku
Topic: Feeling Feelings /Source Awareness
Sent: 10.10 - 3/16 2001
Steve M.-
Regarding what will more likely produce rehab
success:
You and I are saying the same thing using different
terminology. When I said "Unless a person can
recover a source awareness (as opposed to an
intellectual understanding)with regard to how
they're creating their
problems with drugs or alcohol, there is a strong
probability that they will relapse" I guess I
assumed that everyone on this board would understand
that this recovery of source awareness can only come
through a deliberate feeling process.
I do like the way you elaborated upon it though.
Very clear.
Daku
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Mack: Skin vs Clothing
Sent: 09.44 - 3/16 2001
Mack: I usually were cotton t-shirts and skivvies
when I'm in them. I wouldn't wear real thick
clothing. Forget the raincoat and homborg, Lyle
Talbot
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Steve/Daku/Mack/Cyndy
Sent: 09.25 - 3/16 2001
Steve: I completely agree with what you and Daku are
saying about intellectual insight. It's truly a
waste after you recognize there's a challenge there.
Most talk therapy is time wasting and really
defensive in nature. People seem to think there is
some magic in being able to talk about something.
And talking about it for weeks and months. Feeling
and action, plus altering states of consciousness to
access healing is what required in real growth. Some
therapies are like belief based religions. You talk
about God, but you don't experience God. Our society
seems to value intellectualizing over experiencing.
Most people's problems in life result from being
stuck in the thought mode when they really need to
be in experiencing mode.
Mack: I would make those sheets and not real think.
You want them to be flexible if you lay down on
them.
If they get too thick you'll not increase their
effect and you'll wind up with red marks on your
skin.
The 12 inch by 12 inch works best. I had smaller
ones to begin with and while they worked okay, they
did not compare to the 12 by 12's. You really feel
your body humming. Silk doesn't really run anything.
I tried a friends.
Cyndy: I agree with Steve those figures are padded.
Most people come back in those 28 day programs. They
may go to different hospitals the next time. But
they do come back. The detox is important, but they
better get their ass on the line and work on those
compulsions.
Lyle Talbot
Name: Mack
Topic: Biocircuits
Sent: 09.11 - 3/16 2001
Oops, thanks Steve. I'll stand by and wait.
Name: Steve Mensing
Topic: Daku: Intellectual understandings
Sent: 09.10 - 3/16 2001
Daku:
Intellectual understandings are basically an
illusion of control by renaming something and
constructing longer sentenances around it. Knowing
something intellectually isn't worth jelly beans.
Tons of folks are highly conscious of their
challenges and they are paralyzed to do anything
about them. Insight approaches are a bag of rocks.
They are not the bedrock of change and integration.
Talking and thinking are not feeling and doing. In
fact they flat out block growth. Talk and insight
approaches are delaying the obvious. Past
recognizing a challenge is there, no more insight is
required.
Much of the talking that goes on in so called
therapeutic settings is compulsive in nature.
Talking about feelings is abstracting feelings not
feeling feelings.
Take care, Steve
Name: Mack
Topic: More on Biocircuits
Sent: 09.09 - 3/16 2001
After reading various Biocircuit websites I have a
better idea of what they are. They seem like
interesting and simple devices. From what I can see
I should be able to whip one up easily, just from
looking at the diagrams I saw.
I want to experiment with tech like the D.I.E. and
Dreamstate Creator while using this thing, as well
as do some general clearing and releasing to see if
I can crank up the results.
I notice there are silk and silver variations, but I
think for now I'm just going to make a simple unit
with copper sheet panels and see how it works. I
wonder what a unit made with gold plates might work!
I wonder if it matters how thick the copper sheet
panels are, and how large, and if the shape of the
panels is important at all. If anyone knows whether
variations in dimensions and plate thickness
influence performance, let me know before I build
it.
Unless Steve or someone else advises otherwise I'm
going to assume that square-shaped 6" x 6"
fairly rigid (thick) plates will work fine. I'll use
copper pipe handles and 12-guage copper wire and
connect everything with standard silver solder. If I
get any noticeable results from this trial run I'll
buy some books on the subject and investigate
further so that I can refine the preliminary design.
Name: Daku
Topic: Rehab Recidivism
Sent: 08.33 - 3/16 2001
Hey Cyndy-
I have no idea if the 70% is an accurate figure or
not but I have an idea why recidivism is so high,
whatever the accurate percentage may be.
Most of the world operates in a cause and effect
domain where victim-based beliefs about
"reasons why" and "why not" are
given validation in matters of rehab treatment. They
do their best to get the patient to stop blaming
their life circumstances and making excuses in order
to take responsibility for their actions and it may
temporarily work in the rehab inpatient setting, but
when the patient leaves that artificial support
system and goes back to their old environment, their
substance dependencey patterns kick up again because
their core problem was not handled at it's source.
From my observation, I see that these programs try
to get at the patient's problem through methods
which will produce "understanding" in the
mistaken idea that if a person intellectually
understands why they are doing something, they will
be able to stop. NOT!
I recall my own pursuits to understand myself and my
behaviors back in the 70's. I was successful, but
gaining understanding of my patterns did little to
help me actually change them. But I'll tell ya what!
I sure could explain myself well.
Unless a person can recover a source awareness (as
opposed to an intellectual understanding)with regard
to how they're creating their problems with drugs or
alcohol, there is a strong probability that they
will relapse.
Even the best rehab programs, if they are operating
on a cause and effect based platform, are simply
rearranging the furniture on the Titanic.
Empowering the patient to act as source in their
life would be a much more effective way to go. The
irony is that by the time a person sinks into
extreme drug use, their will has been so weakened as
to make this approach very difficult without the
"drying out" that occurs in a standard
setting.
Perhaps getting someone completely off substance
abuse would be well recommended to continue on to a
program that would help them regain a source
awareness after they leave the traditional rehab
setting.
Not realizing the necessity of this need for the
proper next step is the downfall of rehab programs.
Halfway houses and the like are a poor substitute
for getting someone to source.
Daku
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Rehab programs
Sent: 06.02 - 3/16 2001
Recently my daughter rented the movie "28
days". In case some of you are unfamiliar with
the movie it's about someone who enters a Rehab
program for their addiction to drugs and alcohol.
Towards the end of the movie, the statement is made
that there is a 70% chance that the person leaving
the rehab program will return.
In the news lately there has been alot of
celebrities, whose addictions have also sent them
back to Rehab. I figure these are people who can
afford the very best when it comes to treatment and
yet it seems the previous attempts to overcome their
addictions have failed.
I was wondering is that an accurate statistic, a 70%
failure rate? Does anyone know of a program that has
a greater success rate?
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Mack
Topic: Biocircuit Devices
Sent: 23.10 - 3/15 2001
They sound kewl but I forgot what these are supposed
to do...can anyone fill me in? There's a sheet metal
shop not far from me and I've bought thin copper
plate there before, when I was diddling with making
better heat sinks for the CPU on my PC. If I can get
an idea of what to do and expect I'll whip some
biocircuits up and post a report here.
Thanks for the feedback Cyndy. Sounds more elaborate
to me than I prefer. I like simple these days!
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Holosync tapes
Sent: 21.56 - 3/15 2001
Mack,
Just to clarify about the Holosync tapes. There are
twelve levels and each level contains four tapes. A
tape called Dive and then three other tapes each
with a different carrier frequency. Each session is
started out with the Dive tape and then you listen
to one of the carrier frequency tapes. After you
become acclimated to the first carrier frequency
tape then you move on to the next and so forth.
Once you've done that whole level you then move on
to the next level with a different Dive tape and
three different carrier frequency tapes.
Depending on the individual I think it would take
quite awhile to work thru all twelve levels.
The point is like a runner who first starts out, a
mile is a big deal, but once he gets used to it he
moves on and does two miles. The tapes work on the
same principle. You keep stimulating the brain with
these different frequencies, becoming acclimated,
then stimulating them again with a different
frequency.
If you're interested in more information feel free
to e-mail me.
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Teko
Topic: BioCircuit plans Yogi: Optimism
Sent: 20.55 - 3/15 2001
Cyborg: Email Steve. He's got directions. He's built
his own. Terry Patten has a book called
"Biocircuits" They sell it over at
"Tools for Wellness" Make your
biocircuit--its far better and cheaper. Use copper
shingles or plates. They have more zing.
Yogi: Steve also mentioned what sounded like belief
type optimism and the stuff that comes from the core
of your being. I think he called it the spontaneous
nature. You know if you are willing to hassle
through something and do what need to be
done--things work out.
Yeah I can't get behind affirmations.
Transformational clearing into essence leaves those
beacons we all talked about for months when we just
started out with Emoclear. It leaves a permanent
felt sense yes this is okay--I'm complete no matter
what.
With that underpinning you can't really lose at
anything you do. You'll always have this basic sense
of okayness. This has become more polished with
clearing and meditation.
Teko
Name: Yogi
Topic: Centerpointe
Sent: 20.40 - 3/15 2001
Hi,
The tapes my friend does are the Centerpointe tapes.
-Y
Name: Teko
Topic: Mack, Steve
Sent: 20.40 - 3/15 2001
Mack: The Adlerians sounded full of it. I hope they
didn't look at other feelings like that!
Steve: I agree with you and Cyndy. Optimism is
really important in getting over the humps and
bumps. I've gotten more optomistic with clearing. I
have this base line feeling that I'll pull through
it all. I used to worry lots. Not anymore. I think
optimism may be our natural status.
Mack and Cyndy: I've listened to some CD's of
binaural beats and holophonic sounds. It was mildly
relaxing. A good all around experience, but nothing
to make me want to go out and buy any of it. I've
done light and sound machines. They were good. The
novelty wore off and I think they might have
suffered from not much change. It really was pretty
good the first too times.
Imagery and mediation does it for me. I've been
itching to make a copper biocircuit. Steve emailed
me the directions. I need to find a place with
copper plates or shingles. All we have is small
hardware stores nearby. I need to go to a building
supply store and try my luck there. Lyle swears by
his too.
Ganzfelds you can make out of halved ping pong
balls.
Teko
Name: Yogi
Topic: Brainwaves
Sent: 20.39 - 3/15 2001
My experiments with brainwave machines also produced
reduced effects over time. It reminded me of the way
that the body acclimates to substances during an
addiction.
However, I have a good friend that has found a tape
meditation program he really likes. I am not sure if
it is Centerpointe, so I'll find out. He has does
lots of Zen sesshins, so I respect it when he says
he's going deep with the tapes. His programs change
the tapes every couple of months, I guess to
counteract the acclimatization effect. It is an
expensive program, but the cost is spread out over
time as you progress through the tape sets.
A really fascinating thing is to watch how your
brainwave states shift naturally all day long during
your daily life. It's amazing the number of states
we experience and the number of identities we
express even in one day!
The joke of all this is that once you have done a
lot of experiementing with deliberately creating and
discreating states, identities, and so forth, the
realization comes that we all already do this stuff
all the time without even knowing it! We are all
already wizards generating complete identities with
their brainwave patterns, opinions, viewpoint
filters, attitudes and beliefs. It usualy takes us a
couple of seconds. We jump into an identity and
BOOM, we ARE that identity at that time. You can
even jump into an identity that says "I've
ALWAYS been this way and I'm NEVER going to
change!" In that moment ALWAYS and NEVER are
very real and stretch out to the horizons of your
perception.
But it's just a momentary identification like all
the others! But we can create it again in THIS
moment.
Anything that gets you in the process of starting to
separate out a little, and see that you are
constantly generating the states you experience is
helpful tech.
After learning how to create deliberately, a way
cool experiment is to let go of the reins again! Be
a beginner again! Re-invent yourself! Like a little
kid who climbs up a rock cliff just so he can jump
in the water again! It's great to plunge right into
I-don't-know-the hell-this-is and work your way back
out of it again. You get new skills, fresh
perspectives, different experiences, and lo and
behold, you might even benefit some other people
along the way!
Life is cool! It's the greatest LGAT ever!
My two cents on optimism: there are two levels of
it. One is a level of having beliefs which are
optimistic create realities that work out
beneficially.
Another, deeper type of optimism comes from doing a
lot of tech and hitting really deep resource states,
essence states, deep silences during meditation, and
such. You come back with an incredible sense of
well-being, a trust and sense of universal harmony
that is grounded deep in the being, without needing
to create beliefs about it, or use affirmations. The
people I consider to be carriers of wisdom seem to
have this innate sense of overall well-being.
Hey, I can't wait for you guys to publish the book:
"Daku For Dummies: Enlightenment for the Rest
of Us!" Does it come with a free CD-ROM packed
with great experiments we can try in the privacy of
our own homes?
-Yogi
Name: Steve
Mensing
Topic: Mack & Brainwaves
Sent: 20.13 - 3/15 2001
Mack:
Don't let me or anyone disuade you from trying these
brain toys. I'm just a one shot customer in the area
of audio technology. It's conceivable there may a
company or companies that heard the feedback of
those early tests and made changeups appear in their
tone systems. Who knows? The Bro Charles tape had a
great group aum going and that was really pleasant.
Hey if you get some Voodoo trance drummers going at
it, they change up the beats periodically to help
keep a novel beat going for entrainment.
There's some great gizmos out there that do alter
brain waves and do some fairly exciting things.
The best I've ever encountered was a homebrew copper
plate biocircuit combined with ganzfeld goggles. It
definately altered brainwaves and kept it up.
I made an Eeman midline bircircuit for less than 7
bucks. I'd stack it up against the best
neurofeedback machines in the world.
I remember the old float tanks--they were fun. We
had them in Philadelphia in the 70's then the
interest dried up.
Take care, Steve
Name: Steve
Mensing
Topic: Mack: Hopeless Adlerians
Sent: 20.00 - 3/15 2001
Mack:
Hey those Adlerians were a little tough on hope.
Personally I think it's a legitamate feeling like
any other--neither good or bad, but potentially
useful feedback for the wife waiting for her husband
at war, the family wondering about Uncle Walt down
in a West Virginia mindshaft minutes after a warning
sounds.
Bob's a nice old guy too.
Take care, Steve
Name: Mack
Topic: Optimism
Sent: 16.17 - 3/15 2001
Steve, do you make any distinctions between optimism
and hope and if so, could you elaborate on them a
bit?
Thanks
Mack
Name: Seeker
Topic: Brainwaves & States of Consciousness
Sent: 16.15 - 3/15 2001
Meditating monks have had their brainwave patterns
recorded, and there are now companies with
technology (audio recordings) that will reproduce
those brainwave patterns in most anyone. Does anyone
know if they also produce the same states of
consciousness?
I'm a bit skeptical. You can get large muscles from
pumping iron, or you can get surgical implants that
make your muscles bigger. In the first instance you
are actually stronger but in the second, the effect
is just cosmetic, obviously. Is there a parallel
here, or does brainwave manipulation technology
really work? Theories?
Name: Lyle Talbot
Topic: Steve: Right on about optimism!
Sent: 16.11 - 3/15 2001
Steve:
We get spoiled by your informative posts. I agree
that our spontaneous natures are optimistic. If
we're pessimistic we need to do some clearing.
Pessimism is based on distortion.
Lyle Talbot
Name: Sri Rama
Sent: 15.58 - 3/15 2001
Reality is the shadow of your thoughts.
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Optimism
Sent: 14.02 - 3/15 2001
Chuck,
I think that optimism is strictly a viewpoint.
Some people see the glass half empty, others half
full. Just a matter of viewpoint.
I'm sure that Steve, or others can come up with
beliefs that one usually has when operating from the
optimistic viewpoint.
I've been pondering what flipped the switch for me.
Like William, I can relate to being very mellow. I'm
wondering if it stems from the attitude that one
gets after being able to unstick something, that
they have been stuck in and thought it was something
that could not be changed.
I know that all of life to me seems so amazing and
entertaining. I have never done any affirmations to
get to this place. Affirmations seem to be a waste
of time if you ask me.
You might want to read some of Steve's stuff posted
on the Tech Page. Maybe it will help bring up some
of those beliefs that have you seeing the cup half
empty.
I am amazed. Someone finally got it right. God is a
her.
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Unit 6
Topic: Turning off creation
Sent: 11.29 - 3/15 2001
Daku, I want to turn off creation. Where is the
switch? Will you teach me on course?
Unit 6
Name: Mack
Topic: Obi & Cycles
Sent: 18.25 - 3/14 2001
Hey Obi,
Share a few goodies about what you have learned
about cycles, if you would. I think they're
fascinating but I've never looked into them at
all...zero knowledge. I had heard of that
Kondraitief economic cycle but don't know any
details.
Cyndy: You are definitely a toney person, meaning
you elevate the tone of others. Is that what they
mean by "a high-toned broad?" I don't know
for sure. It's probably automatic and I bet the
effect is telepathic. I have the reverse effect on
people sometimes, so I'm tuned into this.
Anyway, I like the Scientology tone scale, even
though I've never done any Scio myself (except a
little of the Pilot's Self-Clearing) and despite the
fact that the tone scale isn't as
"scientific" as some experts would like. I
think it's very practical for self-monitoring and
other uses too. The scale I use is from a book
"How To Choose Your People" by Ruth
Minshull, a confirmed RonDroid but also a pretty
astute author, in my opinion.
All the best
Mack
Name: Steve
Mensing
Topic: Cyndy & Failure
Sent: 16.55 - 3/14 2001
Cyndy:
A Personality Cluster is a clustering of beliefs
that forms an identity. In my post to Failure below
I'll list the Personality Cluster for Failure.
Clearing out the beliefs in this category will undo
the failure identity. This is likely easier for
folks than clearing an entire identity in one gulp.
Identities tend to have complex aspects and are
challenging to do in their entirety with one gulp
processes. Breath tech can do this much like a water
vacuum cleaner taking on a spill. However I find
it's easier for folks to take the one belief at a
time approach to clearing a Personality Cluster.
Clearing someone who has a felt sense of the belief
may trigger incidents spontaniously where these IDs
were formed and the whole identity blows out like a
cheap birthday candle.
Failure:
Feeling like a failure is very painful and a common
plague to many. Failure also haunts succesful folks
as well. Movie stars and pop singers, who have
"made it", complain of still feeling like
failures and imposters.
Here is a Personality Cluster for Failure. This
particular cluster provides us with a sense that we
will fail at everything we try because we are dull,
inept, unskilled, or untalented. Beliefs are:
* I can't perform as well as others.
* I'm a failure.
* Methods may work for others, but they'll never
work for me.
* I'm no good at anything so why even bother.
* Whatever I do is doomed.
* Others are more capable than I am.
* If I failed once I will always fail.
* I lack the talent and skills that other people
have.
* My failures haunt me--why would I want to go
through failure again?
* Other people are much more successful than I.
* Even if I succeed, I'm an imposter because I am
really a failure.
* I've got nothing but bad luck.
* Trying only leads to more humiliation. Why bother?
* The universe has willed me to failure.
* My past life karma is here to collect.
Failure: if any of the above beliefs seem to fit,
then you may want to clear them with any tech with
which you feel comfortable. Feel free to change the
language of any of the above beliefs to make them a
better fit.
Our sense of failure can arrive from many quarters.
We may have had parents who were hypercritical of
our performances at school. We may still hear
expressions like "Dumbo",
"Stupid", "Yo lunkhead" echoing
in our memories.
Sometimes we may have successful brothers, sisters,
and parents and we might make that comparison which
gets the failure ball rolling. Even worse we may
have had parents who didn't give a hoot about our
performance in school or sports and this could set
the failure challenge in motion. We may have done
poorly in school and compared ourselves with other
kids. LD kids often have to put up with this
secondary issue. Also not having limits set for you
or having discipline in our upbringing can put us in
line for a fall.
Failing or a sense of failure is based on some major
distortions. These distortions are labels that don't
cover all our behaviors.
To label ourself a failure is to not take into
account that we obviously have done some things
right or successfully even if it may just be tieing
our shoes or turning off the lights. When we believe
we're failures we often rule out many of the
successes we have had. We look back through the
glass darkly. Depressed folks will often report
nothing but failures even though a closer
examination will show some successful endevours.
The sense of failure distorts the picture. It freeze
frames a situation and makes mistakes and errors
look as if they were for alltime and can't be
undone. Folks who operate from more postive
frameworks will mark off when things didn't work out
as learning experiences or calls for changes in how
we operate.
Mack reported the other night about some businesses
that went South on him, but I'm sure he just
regarded them as bumps in the road or signals that
he needed to do things differently.
Martin Seligman wrote a great little book on
emotional resiliancy in the face of adversity. A lot
of succesful folks have run into roadblocks, but
they tended not to see the these challenges as being
forever. They saw them as instructive bits of
evidence that they needed to do things differently.
You may want to take out that simple Relabeling
Process on the tech page and apply it to any
stinging roadblocks you may have encountered. Look
for what's learnable and valuable in those
situations.
Folks who believe they are failures and everything
they touch turns to stone will often procrastinate
or not even bother. It is important to take action
on important callings no matter how badly we feel.
Getting up and doing gives us control, changes our
feelings states, and gets stuff done.
Some areas of corrective action with failure are:
* Learn skills that will help take you out of a rut
and apply them.
* Consider doing activities which match your talents
and then do them.
* Sometimes we need to work our way up the ladder,
avoiding it can be more painful because it can put
us on the periphery of what we'd really like to do.
* Handle any procrastination and tardiness issues if
you're working for others. We can set our clocks and
follow through on agreed upon times.
* Check out those areas of your life you may tend to
minimize. Appreciate those things that do work for
you. Ask yourself: "What works?"
* Become aware of your abilities, skills, talents,
and achievements. Make lists of them and check them
out.
* Observe what has worked successfully in your life.
Can you replicate more of the same? How?
* If you see patterns of socalled failure, see how
you can alter or interrupt those patterns. All
patterns are alterable.
* Leave yourself open to mentoring and feedback.
* Screw preordained life and being born under a bad
sign. They're lousy excuses to live with distorted
beliefs. Ruts can be filled in with concrete effort
and new ways of seeing.
* Change is inevitable.
* We can also set aside living by success or
failure. We can choose to live through vitally
absorbing and meaningful activity. Even if it feels
like we're dwelling in a concentration camp, we can
still plant flowers, do well by others, and take up
meanignful activities. Eventually we can overwhelm
the guards and liberate ourselves by our focus and
efforts.
Take care, Steve
Name: flowrite
Topic: Being different
Sent: 12.39 - 3/14 2001
Remember all you well wishers you can only feel
connected when you are uniquely you, if that means
being different then so be it.
There can be no conflict between feeling different
and feeling connected. Why? I'm not 100% on this but
it could be to do with the ability to have or handle
the space generated.
Simple test. If your an abortionist and the person
over there is pro life, do you feel connected?
flowrite
Name: Matt S
Topic: John Gastly
Sent: 12.38 - 3/14 2001
Hey John Gastly:
Can you send me an email? I want to ask you a quick
question.
Thanks,
Matt
Name: Matt S
Topic: Failure, Dumb
Sent: 12.35 - 3/14 2001
Failure & Dumb:
I can sympathize with both of you. When I found this
page 3 months ago, I could do some of the tech with
mediocre results, but really couldn't understand why
others got so much more from it. I too felt like I
was doing something wrong and feared I couldn't get
this stuff.
Also, I can understand what Failure is talking
about. I often felt like I couldn't do anything
right, there wasn't anything to look forward to in
life, etc.
I can tell you both, hanging around this page, doing
the tech on the tech page, asking for help, has all
done wonders for me on all of these things. It may
not be a one-week miracle. It has not been for me,
and I don't feel like I'm over the hump yet.
But tell me, how would it feel for either of you to
know where you want to go, know how to get there,
and you're driving in the right direction? That's
how I feel now. I haven't arrived, but I'm
approaching. And as I get closer, I've become less
worried about reaching the destination, and I'm
enjoying the ride.
That may feel hopeless or sound ludicrous to you
now. It would have to me a few months ago. But it's
happening, and it can for you too.
Some things that helped me:
1. If Steve has a golden rule, I think it might be:
allow your feelings to be there with no intention of
getting rid of them or holding onto them. Very
important! The more you resist something, the more
energy you put into it, the stronger it will get. If
you can embrace whatever you're feeling, just watch
it, accept it, it will feel better. This will take
practice, but it's soooo worth it. The same goes for
any situation in life: if you're not happy with what
you're experiencing, allow those feelings to be
there, without resistance. Just be aware of those
feelings, spend time with them, hang out with them.
2. Active Feeling, on the tech page. It's been my
favorite so far. I consider myself a novice at
clearing, and can get confused or stressed by too
many steps, trying to do too many things I consider
"weird" or don't understand. Active
Feeling is a great way to ease into tech: it's
simple and it's powerful.
If I tried to ride the bike without training wheels
first, I'd fall right off. So I use the training
wheels awhile. When that feels good, I'll take them
off and try it that way. Before you know it, I'll be
mountainbiking, racing, etc.
3. Pilot's Self-Clearing manual at www.fza.org I've
only done the first 2 chapters of 40-plus or so, but
they're a tremendous help! I often find myself
"in my head", struggling to regain focus
amidst a whirlwind of thoughts. The techniques in
these 2 chapters are invaluable to me for refocusing
on the external world and slowing down torrents of
thoughts. They're an easy way of grounding yourself.
4. Clearing is fun, but I've found that pushing it,
thinking of nothing else about clearing, can drive
you batty. Have other goals in life besides just
clearing and make sure you pursue them. Check out
"A Call to Action" on the tech page. Also,
there is a helpful exercise on
www.avataroverdrive.com which gives all sorts of
helpful prompts for coming up with goals for
yourself.
Here:
http://www.avataroverdrive.com/avatar_journal/vol14is2/exercise_27.htm
5. Make sure you're doing what you want with your
life. Hopefully your goals will cover that. But
sometimes we pick goals or do things because others
told us how great it was and that we should do it.
For example, I had a goal to try out selling some
stuff on eBay and possibly start a part-time
business. I've tried it now, it was alright, but I
have discovered I am having more fun programming
computers and playing guitar. So I'm going to go
after those instead.
Hang around here long enough and you'll here Steve
talking about absorption, getting so involved in and
enjoying your activities so much that you lose
yourself in them. Finding something like that that
you can do in your life right now is very healthy
for you.
One or more of these things is very likely to help
you. Believe it or not, life and any part of it can
get better through your own effort. I didn't believe
it before. But I know I feel worlds better than I
did 3 months ago, and it's only going up.
And to tell the truth, though all of the things
above helped tremndously, probably the most
important thing is to be accepting of yourself and
your feelings as much as possible. And to the degree
you don't accept yourself and your feelings, accept
that too! If you have the intention of accepting
yourself, your feelings, and whatever happens, the
suggestions from others and the ones above will work
for you. Patience, persistence, and acceptance are
your best friends!
Take care,
Matt
Name: Mack
Topic: Cyndy you Lie....
Sent: 11.16 - 3/14 2001
....when you say you aren't a therapist. Oh I know
you maybe don't practice or have formal credentials
but I bet if I inquired of your friends and family
they'd all say you exert a healing force on them
all, just because of who you are. So there.
Every time I read a post from you I also see a
smile. Big deal you say.
Well, it sometimes is a big deal. I was at this
seminar some years ago listening to a talking about
how he had become so depressed and suicidal he had
tidied up his affairs and was driving down the 405
in LA, on his way to do the deal. It was all over,
he had decided.
Unexpectedly, he made eye contact with a woman in a
car next to him, which is a fairly rare event in LA
traffic. Even more startling, she gave him a
brilliant smile. Then she drove of, and he never saw
her again.
The guy told of how he was so shaken he had to pull
over and reconsider his position. This tiny and
seemingly insignificant even had changed everything.
He spoke of how that one little thing made him start
to wonder how many other unexpected things might
happen if he just put off killing himself for
awhile. So he did. He said that eight years had gone
by, and he had never enjoyed such a sense of wonder,
trying to figure out just how he was going to be
surprised next by life.
Therefore Cyndy, I hereby award you your official
NAP "Smile Therapist" credentials. Try not
to let 'em go to your head.
All the best
Mack
Name: Digital Dharma
Topic: Take a Break & Enjoy
Sent: 11.03 - 3/14 2001
Consciousness-shifting freebie alert: Hi-tech
meditation available at
http://www.centerpointe.com/demo/index.cfm
Get stereo headphones first though. Lotsa fun.
Name: William Tekada
Topic: Cyndy: Forum Failure: Been there too
Sent: 10.46 - 3/14 2001
Cyndy: Yes I know the Forum here has been very
helpful in many ways in my personal journey with
tech.
It's allowed me to see new ways of targeting for
starters. I've learned plenty from Steve, Lyle,
Yogi, Teko, Beyond One, and some others. There is a
good group spirit here that you pick up when you
come here for awhile. It's especially evident when
they all pitch in and assist some one with their
tech problems or personal hassles. There's some
pretty novel approaches here that get down into some
really deep areas. Most people arn't aware of the
effect of their thoughts and feelings and states of
consciousness. Here people learn more control by
letting go of control. I bet if Failure hangs out
here any length of time he'll get caught up in the
healing energy here. The energy here runs very
heavy. You can help but learn some very useful
things here if you stay over time. I've altered my
personality immensely over the last 6 to 8 months.
I'm mellower, happier, see things clearer, am really
not run much at all by old programing. I'm relaxed
and feeling very present from all this work. My
girlfrind thinks I've altered a huge part of my
personality. I went after my Personality Clusters. 4
clusters were effecting me to some degree. They are
wiped out.
This page has been a real boost. Plus I find it
stimmulating to my mind and spirit. It's an
uplifting spirit.
Did I tell you I met with Steve last week. I drove
down the Jersey turnpike to Philadelphia. He's
really a commanding personality in real life. Very
genuine and extremely clear. He's got a twinkle in
his very bright and clear eyes and he laughs
heartily. You can't help but feel uplifted in his
presence. It's like this wonderful spirit of life.
Like Teko said, if you get him telling stories it's
extremely entrancing. He takes you right there. We
were talking about boxing and he started running off
these Sonny Liston stories. He was describing Sonny
beating a heavy bag in Champs Gym in Philadelphia in
the sixties. He was talking about the reel to reel
tape recorder in this dingy gym where Sonny trained
and how it was always playing "Night
Train" by James Brown. You could feel the power
coming up in the floor with each concussive blow to
the bag. Anywhere Cyndy I was seeing this gym scene
and it was blowing me away it was so powerful. I was
starting to dream it standing there talking to
Steve. It was actually a powerful metaphor about my
issue with personal power. He talks a little bit and
you talk a lot after awhile. He listens very closely
and quitely nodding his head. He'll let you run then
ask you some very penatrating question. We got to do
some process together. Yes he has the healing force.
He could have said boo really and I would have
cleared. He exudes tremendous charisma. Not flash.
Real humanity. He genuinely is interested in people
and cares about them. I really, really liked the
guy.
Failure: I've felt like a total loser 8 years ago.
That's all altered, but you have to bite the bullet
and do the work. The magic is in the "do".
Failure is just a trance. I'd comment further, but
I've got to swing back from break.
Pay attention to the people here.
William Tekada
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Failure
Sent: 08.31 - 3/14 2001
Failure,
I'm not a therapist, so by all means don't take
anything I say too seriously.
If I were you I would consider myself a success. You
have found this message board. Do you know how
f**kin' lucky you are? No midas touch, my arse.
And if you have found us, that means you have a
computer, or know how to access one. Give yourself
some credit, you know how to work the dumb thing or
you wouldn't have found us. Yep, it's preordained,
in the stars, you have come to the right place.
What part of your success in finding this message
board are you responsible for?
Much love,
Cyndy
Anyone on board will tell you there are many factors
to becoming successful...having smarts, isn't really
all that important.
Name: The Failure
Topic: Failing
Sent: 07.20 - 3/14 2001
I just read dumb's statements and I can identify
with him. I absolutely believe I have the reverse
midas touch. Everything I touch just about fails or
distructs. I feel like total failure. It depresses
the hell out me. I can't see any successes in my
life.
I have worked with the M.G. on this page and it has
worked for me which gives me a ray of hope. I
believe in my heart of hearts that I will fail. Can
someone get out of this mindset. I know others who
are failures and they remain that way. It's seems
like the world has already ordained my lot in life
as well as others. I think this is reasonable to
assume. Wherever I look I see people not really
making it.
You people appear to know what you're doing. I feel
very inferior to you. Your brains work way faster
than mine. My questions:
Do people really every step out of being failures?
Have any of you? What can you do to get out of being
a person who believes and feels they are doomed to
failure. I join dumb in believing I absolutely
believe I can't get out of this rut. This is my
karma.
The Failure
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Greatest Gains
Sent: 06.40 - 3/14 2001
William,
Thanks, for answering my question. I am particularly
interested in your statement that in six months you
have rapidly gotten to the point of just looking at
your targets and them blinking out.
I know you have been exploring for some time and had
some expertise in using tech before Emoclear. Do you
think that one of the reasons you have had the
greatest gains with Emoclear is this online
community that we have going here?
I know this is strange but from the beginning I have
felt more at ease exploring in this forum, than in
any other. Maybe it's the anonymity. Maybe it's just
Steve. Sometimes I get he has reached out and
touched us all. Unconsciously he is directing us
all.
I'm still waiting for that "Noteck". Do
you think looking at a target and having it blink
out is it?
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Yogi
Topic: You've got the tapes!
Sent: 20.39 - 3/13 2001
Hey, you've got the tapes!
That's even better than having the just the
workbook. Work through them a couple of times and
then do the Avatar Course.
Happy sailing!
Yogi
Name: Cyndy
Topic: Around the Block
Sent: 20.05 - 3/13 2001
William,
Yes, what you went to sounds like the Enlightenment
Intensive that Justine was asking about.
From your posts it sounds like you have really
explored alot of various things. Now, I am really
bummed that a 3 day course wasn't quite the end all.
But it occurs to me to ask you what you consider to
have given you the greatest gains.
If you had a close friend who was just starting out,
what would recommend?
Much love,
Cyndy
Name: Yogi
Topic: Alien Nation
Sent: 20.03 - 3/13 2001
$#*(&()$^%&*#&^$#>>>(@#$*()>>>>>#*&$*(@.....
....*$(*$....????8$&89>>>....1/1!!!???
Click....whirrrrrr...gerastrv ethardk.....glettnds
eathrlnsg.....grettt%^&
eartoifings.......click...
greetings, earthlings!
Polly and Steve,
How come you guys know so much about my adolescence?
Misfit, an alcoholic parent, feeling like I'm from
somewhere else, you guys were talking about me
weren't you? Come on, admit it!
Polly, this may sound a little strange, but Its the
most compassionate thing I can say to you: your
emptiness, your alienation, your loneliness, your
ALONENESS is a fantastic gift waiting for you. It is
a diamond in the rough. It has a hard, ugly
exterior, but inside is a pure diamond which is your
own self.